dogfight

On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the
speed down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum.
It will snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which
is mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic.
I've seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need
vectored thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to
what I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good
one pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.

That was really the key for the Allies. I was not the planes, it was
the pilots. Japanese losses were so high that they looted all the
training schools for experienced pilots and sent them to the front.
Germany simply kept their best pilots at the front for the duration.
That is a great way for a few guys to rack up impressive totals as aces
(Germany had about a hundred pilots who had shot down more than a
hundred planes), but they never pass their knowledge on and attrition
eventually takes most of them out. The Allies continually rotated their
best pilots back to the training centers.

Sure, the 109 in skilled hands was a deadly opponent, the operative
phrase being "in skilled hands." Germany simply ran out of skilled
hands. Erich Hartmann may have survived the war, but he lost far too
many of his comrades in arms. Who knows what Marseille (for example)
would have done if he had lived? His training program and theories of
strategy and tactics were innovative for his day, to say the least. If
he had been sent back to a training school, things might have gone
harder for the Allies.

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next generation
of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the airlines will reach
the point where Germany was, trying to win the war, so to speak, with
just one pilot.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the
speed down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum.
It will snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which
is mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic.
I've seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need
vectored thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to
what I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good
one pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.

That was really the key for the Allies. I was not the planes, it was the
pilots. Japanese losses were so high that they looted all the training
schools for experienced pilots and sent them to the front. Germany
simply kept their best pilots at the front for the duration. That is a
great way for a few guys to rack up impressive totals as aces (Germany
had about a hundred pilots who had shot down more than a hundred
planes), but they never pass their knowledge on and attrition eventually
takes most of them out. The Allies continually rotated their best pilots
back to the training centers.

Sure, the 109 in skilled hands was a deadly opponent, the operative
phrase being "in skilled hands." Germany simply ran out of skilled
hands. Erich Hartmann may have survived the war, but he lost far too
many of his comrades in arms. Who knows what Marseille (for example)
would have done if he had lived? His training program and theories of
strategy and tactics were innovative for his day, to say the least. If
he had been sent back to a training school, things might have gone
harder for the Allies.

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next generation
of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the airlines will reach
the point where Germany was, trying to win the war, so to speak, with
just one pilot.

The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to the
point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really don't
want my family to fly any more.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:



It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next
generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the
airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to win the
war, so to speak, with just one pilot.

The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:


It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next
generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the
airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to win the
war, so to speak, with just one pilot.
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Bertie


Yeah, it's getting a bit hairy out here with some of the carriers.
Of course the government will solve everything with this new "passengers
Bill of Rights" thing they just pushed through. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Dec 15, 11:27 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next
generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the
airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to win the
war, so to speak, with just one pilot.
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.

There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.

Bertie

Yeah, it's getting a bit hairy out here with some of the carriers.
Of course the government will solve everything with this new "passengers
Bill of Rights" thing they just pushed through. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

1. You have the right to be strip searched.
2. You have the right to be delayed for hours as little old ladies
are wanded by the TSA.
3. You have the right to drink a fifth of Vodka that you can't carry
on the plane.
4. You have the right to take off your shoes and put them through the
X-Ray machine (odor eaters are discouraged)
5. You have the right to feel like a criminal if you forget to take
you cell phone out before going through the metal detector.
6. You have the right to be "on time" an hour later than you were
scheduled to be.
I'm sure I'm missing a few here...

wrote in
:

On Dec 15, 11:27 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today:
cannibalizing all the instructors and worrying later about where
the next generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder
if the airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to
win the war, so to speak, with just one pilot.
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting
to the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I
really don't want my family to fly any more.

There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I
sometimes have to position on them, I really don't like it.

Bertie

Yeah, it's getting a bit hairy out here with some of the carriers.
Of course the government will solve everything with this new
"passengers Bill of Rights" thing they just pushed through. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

1. You have the right to be strip searched.
2. You have the right to be delayed for hours as little old ladies
are wanded by the TSA.
3. You have the right to drink a fifth of Vodka that you can't carry
on the plane.
4. You have the right to take off your shoes and put them through the
X-Ray machine (odor eaters are discouraged)
5. You have the right to feel like a criminal if you forget to take
you cell phone out before going through the metal detector.
6. You have the right to be "on time" an hour later than you were
scheduled to be.
I'm sure I'm missing a few here...


I believe he's talking about the ever declining standards in pilot
training and the ever increasing irresposibility of management.
This is not true of all airlines, but suffice it to say, you get what
you pay for..


Bertie

In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip said:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Can you name them? My wife and I were looking at Alaska cruises this
year, and the longer ones all seem to require you to fly on Alaska
Airlines at some point. I don't know about you, but I get the impression
that they didn't learn their lesson about shoddy maintenance after the
MD-80 jack screw crash, so I'm real reluctant to fly on them.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"I had to kill him -- he was starting to make sense."

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in
:

In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip said:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I
sometimes have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Can you name them? My wife and I were looking at Alaska cruises this
year, and the longer ones all seem to require you to fly on Alaska
Airlines at some point. I don't know about you, but I get the
impression that they didn't learn their lesson about shoddy
maintenance after the MD-80 jack screw crash, so I'm real reluctant to
fly on them.



Don't know about them, but one of the larger bargain basement airlines
would be the one that sprang to mind first.. Think over-runs
That jackscrew accident was a bit of a wakeup for the whole industry
though. I know we looked at out lube schedules and found them wanting
afterwards.


Bertie

On Dec 16, 10:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:

Can you name them? My wife and I were looking at Alaska cruises this
year, and the longer ones all seem to require you to fly on Alaska
Airlines at some point. I don't know about you, but I get the impression
that they didn't learn their lesson about shoddy maintenance after the
MD-80 jack screw crash, so I'm real reluctant to fly on them.

PT, Alaska may have some issues, but jack screws isnt one of them. The
entire industry learned alot from that accident.Have fun on the cruise
and remember, plenty of sunscreen.
FB

On 2007-12-16 09:35:11 -0800, (Paul Tomblin) said:

In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip said:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Can you name them? My wife and I were looking at Alaska cruises this
year, and the longer ones all seem to require you to fly on Alaska
Airlines at some point. I don't know about you, but I get the impression
that they didn't learn their lesson about shoddy maintenance after the
MD-80 jack screw crash, so I'm real reluctant to fly on them.

The only glitch we had this year was coming back into Vancouver B.C.
Our ship was a little late docking because another was delayed in
departure. We had to dash to the airport and hope that our bags caught
up with us. Our bags did not arrive in time for inspection and we had
to get into the extremely long security line. Finally our bags showed
up and I held our place in line while Jane got them checked.

When we got to the initial checkpoint they took our boarding passes and
passports, but then they did not give me Jane's boarding pass back.
They denied they had ever had it until finally someone found it under
the counter where it had fallen. Another long line for x-ray screening,
well over an hour.

Then finally a mad dash with just five minutes to spare before takeoff.
I get up to the gate and the lady tells me to be patient and wait my
turn (there was no one else at the gate desk). Finally she deigns to
tell me that we are on a 15 minute delay for maintenance and that they
had announced it and that I should have known about it. I bit my tongue
hard.

Another fifteen minuted delay. Another. Another. Another. Finally, we
get assigned to a different flight three hours later. So, yeah, Alaska
still has maintenance problems, but they are of the delay type, not the
"it's broke but let's fly it anyway" type. And I loathe TSA, US Customs
(the only part of Canada we were in was the bus trip from the ship to
the airport, but we had to go through all the paperwork anyway) and all
the other bureaucratic nonsense we had to put up with.

But the cruise was great.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor