Fly Boy ?????

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Mike Marron
Date: 10/23/03 2:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

Glad to see you finally coming around Steven. There's no substitute
for experience but when I asked you how many hours you have in
a certain type your non sequitur response was "irrelevant."



We had 30 seconds to escape from a B-26 in training in Lake Charles.And some of
us didn't make it all the time. Navy guysawho have been through ditching drill
will understand. .The B-26 barely paused at the surface before flooding and
diving under. Bush's plane was a "floater" and often floated for hours. He
should have ditched. Sorry to insert personal ditching experience in this
thread.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art Kramer wrote:
Mike Marron wroteL
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

Glad to see you finally coming around Steven. There's no substitute
for experience but when I asked you how many hours you have in
a certain type your non sequitur response was "irrelevant."

We had 30 seconds to escape from a B-26 in training in Lake Charles.And some of
us didn't make it all the time. Navy guysawho have been through ditching drill
will understand. .The B-26 barely paused at the surface before flooding and
diving under.

I haven't been thru the Navy's ditching drills but I have ditched an
A/C before (for real) and I certainly understand. You're sitting there
fat, dumb and happy and the next thing ya know you're hanging
from the straps upside down. Here's a ditching story from one of
my UK bud's who went thru a similiar experience:

***

Well I had personal experience and I can tell you that when the trike
hits the water it is all over in a second and the wing wrapped around
the trike which tipped sideways and sank immediately. I would not
suggest undoing your seat belt if you intend to stay with the craft.

I panicked for a second underwater thinking I was trapped, I forgot
about my seat belt, then common sense took over and I relaxed, undid
it and felt my way out. In a rushing river or sea things will be even
worse. My river was slow moving and shallow enough to see a wing tip
sticking above the surface. One wing stayed in tact, the other
wrapped around the trike.

You won't be able to stall like a hang glider and just drop down to
the water unless you do a BIG stall which will take you up quite high.
The resulting drop will not be good. When they fly the English
channel, people fill their wings with air matresses to help keep the
wing afloat if they ditch.

I would not want to go through it again and I think I may take my
chances and jump next time before hitting the water, especially in
rough water or fast flowing rivers.

***

Bush's plane was a "floater" and often floated for hours. He should
have ditched.

Even if you're right, I'm afraid that ain't the point, Art. Have you
read Ed Rasimus' astute comments (and my followup) in this
thread? In case you missed it, here they are once again:

Ed said:

***

I've followed all this thread, biting my tongue in the process. What
amazes me is that the resident "if you ain't been, you ain't ****..."
curmudgeon is so eager to condemn someone who has been there.

Anyone who has been, knows that you all sign on--pilots, navs,
bomb-aimers, gunners, EWO's et. al. You go to war. You go with the
folks you are assigned to go with.

War happens in a heartbeat. It sometime works for you and sometime
against. Some folks die and some folks live. The live ones aren't
better or worse than the dead ones, simply luckier.

To second guess circumstances sixty years later, particularly based on
an author's creative account is to demean the whole warrior ethic.

I'm sorry. I survived. I didn't spend years in a POW camp. I wasn't
wounded in action. I didn't lose any crew members. I didn't lose any
aircraft. I saw a lot of losses.

The fact that is incontrovertible is that Bush (41) was a combat
pilot. He was younger than most. He was blooded. He lost an aircraft
in honorable combat. He survived. What is wrong with that?

Additionally, as I've previously noted in this forum, Bush (43) was a
graduate of UPT, a qualifier in a Century Series aircraft, and a
commissioned officer. Those are fine qualifications in my book.

***


My followup:

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps Teddy Roosevelt
summed it up best:


"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done
better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
arena......"

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Mike Marron
Date: 10/23/03 6:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Art Kramer wrote:
Mike Marron wroteL
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

Glad to see you finally coming around Steven. There's no substitute
for experience but when I asked you how many hours you have in
a certain type your non sequitur response was "irrelevant."

We had 30 seconds to escape from a B-26 in training in Lake Charles.And some
of
us didn't make it all the time. Navy guysawho have been through ditching
drill
will understand. .The B-26 barely paused at the surface before flooding and
diving under.

I haven't been thru the Navy's ditching drills but I have ditched an
A/C before (for real) and I certainly understand. You're sitting there
fat, dumb and happy and the next thing ya know you're hanging
from the straps upside down. Here's a ditching story from one of
my UK bud's who went thru a similiar experience:

***

Well I had personal experience and I can tell you that when the trike
hits the water it is all over in a second and the wing wrapped around
the trike which tipped sideways and sank immediately. I would not
suggest undoing your seat belt if you intend to stay with the craft.

I panicked for a second underwater thinking I was trapped, I forgot
about my seat belt, then common sense took over and I relaxed, undid
it and felt my way out. In a rushing river or sea things will be even
worse. My river was slow moving and shallow enough to see a wing tip
sticking above the surface. One wing stayed in tact, the other
wrapped around the trike.

You won't be able to stall like a hang glider and just drop down to
the water unless you do a BIG stall which will take you up quite high.
The resulting drop will not be good. When they fly the English
channel, people fill their wings with air matresses to help keep the
wing afloat if they ditch.

I would not want to go through it again and I think I may take my
chances and jump next time before hitting the water, especially in
rough water or fast flowing rivers.

***

Bush's plane was a "floater" and often floated for hours. He should
have ditched.

Even if you're right, I'm afraid that ain't the point, Art. Have you
read Ed Rasimus' astute comments (and my followup) in this
thread? In case you missed it, here they are once again:

Ed said:

***

I've followed all this thread, biting my tongue in the process. What
amazes me is that the resident "if you ain't been, you ain't ****..."
curmudgeon is so eager to condemn someone who has been there.

Anyone who has been, knows that you all sign on--pilots, navs,
bomb-aimers, gunners, EWO's et. al. You go to war. You go with the
folks you are assigned to go with.

War happens in a heartbeat. It sometime works for you and sometime
against. Some folks die and some folks live. The live ones aren't
better or worse than the dead ones, simply luckier.

To second guess circumstances sixty years later, particularly based on
an author's creative account is to demean the whole warrior ethic.

I'm sorry. I survived. I didn't spend years in a POW camp. I wasn't
wounded in action. I didn't lose any crew members. I didn't lose any
aircraft. I saw a lot of losses.

The fact that is incontrovertible is that Bush (41) was a combat
pilot. He was younger than most. He was blooded. He lost an aircraft
in honorable combat. He survived. What is wrong with that?

Additionally, as I've previously noted in this forum, Bush (43) was a
graduate of UPT, a qualifier in a Century Series aircraft, and a
commissioned officer. Those are fine qualifications in my book.

***


My followup:

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps Teddy Roosevelt
summed it up best:


"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done
better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
arena......"


There were 11 million of us in that arena. When a pilot survives and loses
his crew there will always be questions. Those who flew aircrew, backseaters,
gunners etc seem to understand that and raise questions of their own. But
those who flew alone without aircrew (fighter pilots) or those who never flew
at all may never understand the concerns of aircrew.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art Kramer wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps Teddy Roosevelt
summed it up best:

"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done
better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
arena......"

There were 11 million of us in that arena.

No, there were only *three* in that arena -- the pilot who survived,
and the turrent gunner and the belly gunner/radioman whom are
both deceased and have been for many decades now. If you're
having a tough time believing what the sole survivor says, I guess
you're just **** outta' luck!

When a pilot survives and loses
his crew there will always be questions.

harsh glare of reality there, but its true. In this case however, one of the
backseaters did get out - so Bush, in my view, stayed with the a/c long enough;
from the pilots seat, he could not have known the status of his crew but stayed
in well past the other unsuccessful bailout.

Art, I get what you are saying - that its a fact that 'sole survivors' get a
stink eye when they are supposedly the last guy to go down with the ship. When
a hazardous job specialty requires a person to give 100% of their faith to
someone else while they take often mortal chances with their hide, a certain
amount of trust must exist - you have to know that the driver isn't going to
simply bail out and leave you hanging!

Those who flew aircrew, backseaters,
gunners etc seem to understand that and raise questions of their own. But
those who flew alone without aircrew (fighter pilots) or those who never flew
at all may never understand the concerns of aircrew.

I think there is a note of truth there. Similar to the partnership between
firecrews or police patrols, the 'non driver' would always at least wonder if
two go out, one come back. I know its not a popular view - but what Art said
about that is true. As for judging GHW Bush's actions over Chichi Jima? I
think every time you read an accident report you make a sort of judgement - at
least I do. Usually, at some point in the first page, I am thinking, "What a
moron." So Monday morning QB practice is nothing new when its a famous person,
like when JFK Jr. crashed, to look at the reported facts and comment. Its
human nature.

To restate: in this case, I'm ok with Bush's actions and I say that as one of
those backseaters that would at least wonder what happened. He was shot down
in combat, with two fatalities due to enemy action. Bush kept an aircraft in
the air after being hit over the target, guiding it further out from the island
than any of the other a/c that were lost on those strikes. Those g.i.b. knew
they were in a bird that was a mother to bail out of - they knew their chances,
just like all those poor saps in TBDs, and B-26s and all the rest. Sucks that
they didn't make it, but they carried the fight forward.

v/r
Gordon

====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

We had 30 seconds to escape from a B-26 in training in Lake Charles.And
some of
us didn't make it all the time. Navy guysawho have been through ditching
drill
will understand. .The B-26 barely paused at the surface before flooding
and
diving under. Bush's plane was a "floater" and often floated for hours.
He
should have ditched. Sorry to insert personal ditching experience in this
thread.


You know nothing about Bush's plane's floating ability and unless you've
been in a real ditching you have no personal ditching experience.

More to the point, what did the manufacturer have to say on that subject?


I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

Unlike some other Naval aircraft, the TBF/TBM were known as "floaters" and it
was not uncommon for them to remain at or near the surface for some time after
they were dumped overboard or ditched. My first instructor in A-school had
started his career a thousand years earlier as a little pup turret gunner in
Avengers and would occasionally share stories with us from either his time in
them, or things he had heard from the "old hands" when he was first starting
out. (OT That dude was crusty old, to the point you couldn't even guess - I
noted that he didn't carry an ID card, just a disk with a Roman emperor's
profile on it. His first ship was some sort of trireme, "I **** you not".)

Without knowing sea state, winds and surf conditions at the time, or taking
into account the controlability issues, its very difficult to second guess
Bush's choice of silk or ditch. I would rather ditch than bale, primarily
because I was a SAR swimmer and I believed that I would find a way to not
drown. Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

v/r
Gordon

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031023175241.07974.00000029

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 10/23/03 6:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031023175241.07974.00000029

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in
the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Funny but probably true.

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in
the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Funny but probably true.

There were flights I wouldn't let my junior crewman take because I felt the
mixture of pilots on the flight was not safe. My junior crewman was married -
I wasn't. No frickin way I was facing Rhonda if Danny didn't make it back.
We had a truly scarey pilot, a berserk MO (also a pilot), and a pair of J.O.s
that were known to our detachment as the Terror Twins. These guys were like
oil and LOX - think "Bickersons" wearing helmets. I briefed Danny to always
fly with his pen flare out; in case the Twins killed him, I instructed him on
which pilot to

dammit. Rambling again. Sorry, guys.


Gordon
PS, for every crappy pilot, there is one you'd follow straight into hell if he
asked.