Fly Boy ?????

"Bill Silvey" wrote in message
m...

Mike, Art's rabid partisanship won't let him see past this. If Bush had
been a supply-side democrat, Art would be on the other side of this
argument, no doubt.


A supply-side democrat? That must be exceedingly rare.

When a pilot survives and loses
his crew there will always be questions.

harsh glare of reality there, but its true. In this case however, one of the
backseaters did get out - so Bush, in my view, stayed with the a/c long enough;
from the pilots seat, he could not have known the status of his crew but stayed
in well past the other unsuccessful bailout.

Art, I get what you are saying - that its a fact that 'sole survivors' get a
stink eye when they are supposedly the last guy to go down with the ship. When
a hazardous job specialty requires a person to give 100% of their faith to
someone else while they take often mortal chances with their hide, a certain
amount of trust must exist - you have to know that the driver isn't going to
simply bail out and leave you hanging!

Those who flew aircrew, backseaters,
gunners etc seem to understand that and raise questions of their own. But
those who flew alone without aircrew (fighter pilots) or those who never flew
at all may never understand the concerns of aircrew.

I think there is a note of truth there. Similar to the partnership between
firecrews or police patrols, the 'non driver' would always at least wonder if
two go out, one come back. I know its not a popular view - but what Art said
about that is true. As for judging GHW Bush's actions over Chichi Jima? I
think every time you read an accident report you make a sort of judgement - at
least I do. Usually, at some point in the first page, I am thinking, "What a
moron." So Monday morning QB practice is nothing new when its a famous person,
like when JFK Jr. crashed, to look at the reported facts and comment. Its
human nature.

To restate: in this case, I'm ok with Bush's actions and I say that as one of
those backseaters that would at least wonder what happened. He was shot down
in combat, with two fatalities due to enemy action. Bush kept an aircraft in
the air after being hit over the target, guiding it further out from the island
than any of the other a/c that were lost on those strikes. Those g.i.b. knew
they were in a bird that was a mother to bail out of - they knew their chances,
just like all those poor saps in TBDs, and B-26s and all the rest. Sucks that
they didn't make it, but they carried the fight forward.

v/r
Gordon

====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 10:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

When a pilot survives and loses
his crew there will always be questions.

harsh glare of reality there, but its true. In this case however, one of the
backseaters did get out - so Bush, in my view, stayed with the a/c long
enough;
from the pilots seat, he could not have known the status of his crew but
stayed
in well past the other unsuccessful bailout.

Art, I get what you are saying - that its a fact that 'sole survivors' get a
stink eye when they are supposedly the last guy to go down with the ship.
When
a hazardous job specialty requires a person to give 100% of their faith to
someone else while they take often mortal chances with their hide, a certain
amount of trust must exist - you have to know that the driver isn't going to
simply bail out and leave you hanging!

Those who flew aircrew, backseaters,
gunners etc seem to understand that and raise questions of their own. But
those who flew alone without aircrew (fighter pilots) or those who never
flew
at all may never understand the concerns of aircrew.

I think there is a note of truth there. Similar to the partnership between
firecrews or police patrols, the 'non driver' would always at least wonder if
two go out, one come back. I know its not a popular view - but what Art said
about that is true. As for judging GHW Bush's actions over Chichi Jima? I
think every time you read an accident report you make a sort of judgement -
at
least I do. Usually, at some point in the first page, I am thinking, "What a
moron." So Monday morning QB practice is nothing new when its a famous
person,
like when JFK Jr. crashed, to look at the reported facts and comment. Its
human nature.

To restate: in this case, I'm ok with Bush's actions and I say that as one of
those backseaters that would at least wonder what happened. He was shot down
in combat, with two fatalities due to enemy action. Bush kept an aircraft in
the air after being hit over the target, guiding it further out from the
island
than any of the other a/c that were lost on those strikes. Those g.i.b. knew
they were in a bird that was a mother to bail out of - they knew their
chances,
just like all those poor saps in TBDs, and B-26s and all the rest. Sucks that
they didn't make it, but they carried the fight forward.

v/r
Gordon

====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."


Good post Gordon. I think that only those of us that flew as aircrew can
really fully understand the situation. All others are out of the loop.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
just like all those poor saps in TBDs, and B-26s and all the rest. Sucks that
they didn't make it, but they carried the fight forward.

Good post Gordon. I think that only those of us that flew as aircrew can
really fully understand the situation. All others are out of the loop.

Repectfully submit that those who did air-sea rescue were pretty
well aware of it, too. My father did ASR in the channel through '43
and '44 - including picking up those who survived from ditching
fortresses and the like - and got a close view of the many ways in
which an aircraft could fail to ditch in a manner conducive to anyone
getting out alive and of the many ways you could still lose people
afterwards - failing to get out of the aircraft or not reached or
lifted from the water in time (112' Fairmiles weren't big boats,
but they were plenty high enough out of the water to make getting
someone inboard difficult if the weather was dirty).

There's some of his comments up on the WW2 experiences centre
web-pages, at:
http://www.war-experience.org/collec...en/pagetwo.htm
which some here might find interesting.
Actually, I'd strongly recommend the whole site:
http://www.war-experience.org/index.html

They're actively looking for more contributions, and I'm sure that
they would welcome being contacted by some of the survivors of WW2
who post here (Art, for one). They're good people to deal with, too.

No connection with them other than doing patching and proof-reading
of stuff to take the load off my father.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

Actually, I'd strongly recommend the whole site:
http://www.war-experience.org/index.html

Thanks for the steer and the comments, Andy - that channel ASR stuff was truly
hairy, all of the challenges of the sea, plus German torpedo boats!

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 10:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
just like all those poor saps in TBDs, and B-26s and all the rest. Sucks that
they didn't make it, but they carried the fight forward.

The Beaufighter, too, was said by those who knew to be bad in ditching
- heavy for its time and with the way out underneath. I've often
heard my father (who did ASR in the channel) comment that he never saw
anyone get out from a ditched Beau.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

The Beaufighter, too, was said by those who knew to be bad in ditching
- heavy for its time and with the way out underneath. I've often
heard my father (who did ASR in the channel) comment that he never saw
anyone get out from a ditched Beau.

Did he by any chance have experience with any Mosquito ditchings? Never heard
of a survivor from one of them either.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:


The Beaufighter, too, was said by those who knew to be bad in ditching
- heavy for its time and with the way out underneath. I've often
heard my father (who did ASR in the channel) comment that he never saw
anyone get out from a ditched Beau.

So too was the Fairchild C-119 Packet. The AOI (Dash One) had a
large red lettered warning "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DITCH THIS
AIRCRAFT". and went on to explain that because of placement of
the wings/engines and the shape of the fuselage, and that model
simulations had proven that upon water contact the aircraft's
nose would immediately submerge, be ripped off and that the
aircraft would immediately be destroyed. We believed them and
kept our chest chute packs nearby.
--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...

So too was the Fairchild C-119 Packet.
snipped
-Gord.

I think the Fairchild C-82 was the 'Packet', the C-119 the 'Flying Boxcar'.
The United States Air Force Museum agrees with me at
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/outdoor/od.htm .

Tex Houston

"Tex Houston" wrote in message

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...

So too was the Fairchild C-119 Packet.
snipped
-Gord.

I think the Fairchild C-82 was the 'Packet', the C-119 the 'Flying
Boxcar'. The United States Air Force Museum agrees with me at
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/outdoor/od.htm .

Tex Houston

Hey, that was in Flight of the Phoenix, wasn't it?
--
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