soaring into the future

"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
For example, how many buyers are there for a brand new LS-4 selling for
$25,000 - quite a few I expect.

Yes, you could sell one to me at that price, the trick is producing using
traditional fabrication techniques for less than $25,000 in materials and
labor. I don't think it can be done anymore...

IMHO the trick is convincing the manufacturers to ditch the traditional
fabrication techniques, materials, labor, and business model.


Shawn

It won't take any convincing. The glider manufacturers are a bunch of
really bright guys. I can assure they know all about the problems of hand
lay up and the benefits of modern production methods.

The problem isn't technical, we have LOTS of great designs, it's economic.
Assure the manufacturer of a 1000+ production run and you'll get cheap (or
at least cheaper) gliders.

To repeat, it's the production run numbers and almost nothing else.
Everything follows from those numbers.

Bill Daniels

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
news
Bill Daniels wrote:
For example, how many buyers are there for a brand new LS-4 selling for
$25,000 - quite a few I expect.

Yes, you could sell one to me at that price, the trick is producing using
traditional fabrication techniques for less than $25,000 in materials and
labor. I don't think it can be done anymore...

Marc

Exactly. Traditional hand labor can't produce any glider for that price.
But state-of-the-art composite manufacturing processes MAY be able to do it
if you can ramp up the production rate.

Hopefully, all the development going into windmill blade production will
result in the right manufacturing base.

BTW, it's not the LS-4 or the price - it's the combination.

Bill Daniels

Exactly. *Traditional hand labor can't produce any glider for that price..
But state-of-the-art composite manufacturing processes MAY be able to do it
if you can ramp up the production rate.


Bill,

I think you could do hand-layup and still have an attractive price. A
good portion of the work is the finish work, and with the high gloss
the new ships have, you pay for it.

Simple airframes with reduced part counts, are a start.

The up-front tooling costs to use automated processes would be way to
costly, at least for a small company to bootstrap itself into this
biz. IMHO.

Brad

Hi Guys,

I think that the tooling required to make the "simple" glider I
propose need not be overly "sophisticated" After being intimately
involved with the Russia kit and the Apis kit, and studying the TST-
Atlas, I really belive that these ships and manufacturing methods are
valid and produce nice aircraft. If all one looks at are the latest
from Europe, or even the racing glass over the last 20 years, you get
the impression that sophisticated tooling and elaborate parts are a
must-have. Indeed, they probably are a must have for these ships, and
these manufacturers have done a marvelous job with their tooling and
thus the parts. But a simple glider does not need all those "parts"

A fuselage plug can be made on a CNC router using REN board or any
suitable tooling medium. My put would be to use a HD REN board, make a
LH and RH plug split along BL-00, wax and PVA the heck out of it and
pull a mold. The fuselage if designed right, would not require vacuum
bagging, therefore several of the internal bits could be installed,
taped in place and co-cured along with the skin lay-up, saving a lot
of time and materials. A tool to wind a fuselage would require A LOT
of money and most likely would not appeal to anyone with high ROI
hopes. Wet lay-up is still a valid way to make a fuselage, I've layed
up several in the last few years and it is actually kinda fun!

As far as the wing goes, I think the LS-3 wing style is the way to go.
Perhaps aerodynamicaly speaking it may suffer over a modern planform,
but most of those modern planforms are on sailplanes that are state of
the art and their prices reflect that. A simple tapered planform
drives simplicity down the line: straight spar along the 40% C,
straight rear spar, straight hinge axis, straight
flaperon.................all these parts and their tooling/jigging
would be far simpler and cheaper to manufacture.

As Shawn shows in the link he posted, 3k carbon can now be found
relatively cheap, compared to a year ago when availability was scarce
and the price over $45 a yard. I would want to use the best material
for the job; if it required carbon or e-glass then use
it.................and of course a good epoxy.

I am a shop forman doing composites; we are daily designing, cutting,
and making tooling and parts and I know somthing like this can be
done. As Jaun Trippe said, it is a Sporting game...............who
wants to play?

Cheers,
Brad

PS................Shawn, glad to hear your pup is
OK.................ours is still at the vet..........