Flapped Glider Recommendations...

On Jan 8, 9:48*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
That's an easy one. LS4 or DG300 will be your best bet for 30K.

Ramy

Never seen an LS-4 for sale; and I *love* our two local DG-300's - but
the ones I've seen online seem to go for closer to $40k or $50k!
Thought they were out of my budget (unless people are asking for WAY
more than they're actually selling the aircraft for)...

--Noel

LS4s that you'll find for under 30K are probably getting toward the
end of their Gelcoat life. However, there are some beauties out there
that have been refinished and can probably had for "low/mid 30s".

Fact is, any of the ships of the generation you are talking about are
going to be suffering from Gelcoat issues if they haven't already been
refinished; it's only a question of exactly when, not if they're going
to need to be redone. Given that, I think you're first decision
should be based on the specific ships that you find on the market
rather than the "theoretical" performance figures. If it were my
$30K, I would be very comfortable with pretty much any of the ships
discussed in this thread with special preference given to LS3, LS4,
ASW19, DG300 since I think they might be marginally easier to
resell.

FWIW, I had some success years ago beating the bushes to find LS4s
that "weren't for sale" by going through the registration database.
I found one or two that could've been pried away from the owners for a
fair price, even though they hadn't listed them (yet).

On Jan 8, 8:15 pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
OK, how's this for a switcheroo (hijacking my own thread!) - A couple
of people here stated that they thought I wouldn't see much of a
performance difference by going to a flapped ship in weak conditions.
A couple of local pilots with decades of experience have now also said
that. There's still a mental appeal to me in having a "complex"
glider - but if it'll get me a newer or nicer aircraft, I'm open to
the idea of a Standard-Class ship instead.

I've had a private email from someone suggesting an SZD-55 as a good
option (though I don't know if they'd be within my $30k budget limit).

Any other thoughts on what I could get in the Standard class for
around $25k - $30k? Priorities are still 38:1 minimum L/D, good weak-
weather performance (low sink-rate and/or great climb rate),
maneuverable/responsive in the air, and relatively easy to rig.

Honestly I haven't looked all that much... I'm not interested in old
beasts like the LS-1s or G102s or Standard Cirruses. A Libelle H-201,
eh (would probably go with a 301 at that point). How's the Pegasus in
light conditions? Any other weak-weather performers that folks would
recommend in the Standard Class?

Thanks a bunch for all the thoughts and advice!

--Noel

Hi Noel,

I live in Minnesota, not really known for its strong conditions. I
considered many of the sailplanes you did for my first ship and flew
to both coasts to look at a few of them. For example, I looked at a
Mosquito and an LS-1f. I ended up buying a Jantar Standard 2 simply
because it was by far in the best shape of the lot.

At 6 foot and 200 pounds you will fit fine in it. It is easy to rig
and the connections are easy to manipulate and verify. Airbrakes and
water hook up automatically. There is a single pin to align with a
rigging tool to pull the wings in. Wings are on the heavier side, but
fit ladies can manage the wingtips no problem. I typically rig faster
than others.

Like you, I worried a lot about weak-weather performance, especially
after I read the numbers in the sailplane directory. It turned out to
be a complete non-issue. Perhaps because the numbers are wrong! They
list a sink rate of 0.77 m/s or 151 ft/min at 52 kts. However this
sink rate is for the fully-ballasted condition with 150 liters of
water (10 pounds/ft**2 loading) The actual dry figures from the POH
are 0.60 m/s or 118 ft/min at 41 kts and 6.2 pounds/ft**2 loading.

Real world experience? I did my 50k (100k+ actually) on a day when a
well-piloted Ka-6E and another higher performing flapped ship landed
out. So it can't be that bad 'cause I am not that good!

Regarding glide, during my five hour, I flew for a long time with a
Mosquito. At best glide it was pretty even with the edge going to the
Mosquito.

It is tough as nails and parts are available too. Most are poly-
urethaned.

Anyway, hope this helps in your search. I'd go for the nicest
condition ship I could find.

/Adam

Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel

Jantars aren't made out of metal.

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel

On Jan 9, 2:42*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. *The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. *And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel

Hi Noel,

"Medium-performance metal"? Ouch!

OK, so you know little about the Jantars. They were built from 1973
until the mid-90s. My "Standard 2" was made in 1981.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_Bie...antar_Standard

I only mention it as a viable option to the planes you listed (first
and second generation 'glass). Of the planes I went to see, I would
have bought the either Mini-Nimbus or the LS-1f from a price/
performance point of view. Condition left a lot to be desired
howver...

Taking your priority list:
"Priorities are still 38:1 minimum L/D, good weak-
weather performance (low sink-rate and/or great climb rate),
maneuverable/responsive in the air, and relatively easy to rig."

How does a Jantar rate (IMO)?
It does 38:1, it rigs easily, it is responsive, it is fair in the
climb department.

In addition, it has a few desirable features like a very strong
construction (154kt VNE) and a tall landing gear. No wood/balsa cores
to rot, honest behavior in the air, very powerful top/bottom spoliers,
and a good safety record.

On the negative, I find the ailerons heavier than other single-seaters
(could be my seals) and not everyone like the seating arrangement. I
find it comfortable as a six footer.

The "2" version comes in far less than your budget. However the
Standard 3 version puts you into $25k and give you a proper canopy.

OK, I'll stop with the sales pitch. I totally understand if you want
to make a bigger jump. Don't we all?
/Adam

On Jan 9, 2:42 am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel

On Jan 9, 2:42 am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel
Std Jantars are glass and strong. Consider the following world
record.

Speed over a triangular course of 100 km : 249.09 km/h

Date of flight: 01/12/2003
Pilot: Horacio MIRANDA (Argentina)
Course/place: Chos Malal (Argentina)

Glider: PZL-Bielsko SZD-48-1 Jantar Standard 2
Registered 'LVDPD'

I'm from the PNW and spent 10.5 soaring in UK conditions. If I wanted
a 'floater', I'd get a 17m-19m ship. Several are no more vintage than
the 15m gliders mentioned here, though auto hooks are a non-runner.
Rigging is not difficult with the proper kit.

Frank Whiteley

"Old Beasts?"

My LS1-d farts in your general direction!

Don't think an LS1 can keep up? Check out Sam Giltner's successes in
the past couple of years in Sports Class races. He flies an LS1-f.
Immaculately prepared, true. Superb pilot, very true. LS1 old?
Yes. Beastly? No.

By the way, the 301 Libelles are older than the LS1's.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

On Jan 9, 6:43*am, rlovinggood wrote:
"Old Beasts?"

My LS1-d farts in your general direction!

Don't think an LS1 can keep up? *Check out Sam Giltner's successes in
the past couple of years in Sports Class races. *He flies an LS1-f.
Immaculately prepared, true. *Superb pilot, very true. *LS1 old?
Yes. *Beastly? *No.

By the way, the 301 Libelles are older than the LS1's.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

LOL Ray! Too funny!


Noel,

I have an LS1f. Don't discount this particular ship. It's a joy to
fly, very easy to rig, and certainly fits your criteria. It's very
similar to the LS4 in both looks and handling, but with a little less
L/D at 38:1. Besides the one on wings and wheels, I know of two others
that are available. Let me know if you want details.

Dave

noel.wade wrote:

Any other thoughts on what I could get in the Standard class for
around $25k - $30k? Priorities are still 38:1 minimum L/D, good weak-
weather performance (low sink-rate and/or great climb rate),
maneuverable/responsive in the air, and relatively easy to rig.

Honestly I haven't looked all that much... I'm not interested in old
beasts like the LS-1s or G102s or Standard Cirruses. A Libelle H-201,
eh (would probably go with a 301 at that point). How's the Pegasus in
light conditions? Any other weak-weather performers that folks would
recommend in the Standard Class?

I don't know how the price compares, but I spent two happy years flying
my club's Pegase 90 in a lot of different conditions. The main
difference between a 101D and a 90 is that the 90 is a later model and
has fully automatic control hook-ups. I like the Pegase a lot and would
probably have bought one apart from there being none available when I
was in the market. At the time my wish list included Pegase, ASW-19,
ASW-20 and Libelle 201. Performance wise, the Pegase sits between the 19
and the 20. Its essentially a slightly modified ASW-20 fuselage with
completely new wings. If you look under the wing at the right angle you
can just see where the 20's cockpit air inlets have been blocked off:
the Pegase uses a simpler nose inlet.

Has the 3000 hour issue in the US been cleared yet?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |