French planes are crap

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:49:25 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt"
wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the
world in absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take
it's weapon systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The
Republic of Korea's Air Force wanted the Rafale with uprated
engines, but since the US offered the F-15K with economic
offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract (i..e.
they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for
that instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is
getting on in years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any
offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

I don't understand your POV. The F35 is 5 years, if all
goes well, from even entering service with the US -- the Rafale
has already been in service for two years.



Regards...

The Rafale has been a commercial failure. No export sales at
all. "In service" and an effective weapons system are not the
same thing. How many Rafales are currently contracted for?
The F-35 has 3000+ orders in hand.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:49:25 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any
offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

I don't understand your POV. The F35 is 5 years, if all
goes well, from even entering service with the US -- the Rafale
has already been in service for two years.



Regards...

The Rafale has been a commercial failure. No export sales at
all. "In service" and an effective weapons system are not the
same thing. How many Rafales are currently contracted for?
The F-35 has 3000+ orders in hand.

Al Minyard

What about the plane you in question, the Eagle, how many exports
in the last 30, or so, years?



Regards...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter, we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:36:44 -0000, "killfile" wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter, we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

No Rafales. It was, and is, inferior to the F-15

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

There are 3000+ orders for the F-35. They have not been paid for,
because payment is due on delivery.

It will not be canceled, the war on terrorism is expensive, but the US
is quite capable of affording it without impacting other programs

The UK is planning on replacing its excellent, but old, Harrier
fleet with the F-35

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:36:44 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world
in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's
Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for
that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on
in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed
production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line
to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked
out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out
to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter,
we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

No Rafales. It was, and is, inferior to the F-15

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process
as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including
the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

There are 3000+ orders for the F-35. They have not been paid for,
because payment is due on delivery.

It will not be canceled, the war on terrorism is expensive, but the US
is quite capable of affording it without impacting other programs

The UK is planning on replacing its excellent, but old, Harrier
fleet with the F-35


Not strictly true. This is the current favourite for the job, but it has
not been set in stone yet (and knowing British politics it won't be for a
while)

Mister minyard's logic:

Rafale is **** compared to F.35,because it has not been exported at he
moment.ok
So,Rafale is also inferior to Mirage 2000!...
Same logic,same result: F.22 is hit because it has not been exported yet
(and will probably remain ****).And it's
also inferior to F.16!....
And let's go:
-F.14 is inferior to Mirage F.1 because it has been less exported
-F.106 was ........ Mig.17 ............
-Viggen is .......... Su.22
-F.15 is ............... Mig.29 ............
-................

What a specialist we got here!
The rule is: the more a plane is purchased by foreign countries,the better
it is! YES!

Tell it to the Korean militaries,they've liked your "diplomatic"
reasons,cancelling technical results...
And in the same time,ask the F.14 and F.18 pilots that were on the Vinson
last year what they think about the "****-Rafale".
If you got time left,have a tour in Taïwan,they've got "****-Mirage
2000-5",that have already been opposed to F.16 during
some exercices.They'll tell you about it...



"Alan Minyard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:36:44 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world
in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's
Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for
that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on
in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed
production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line
to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked
out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out
to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter,
we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

No Rafales. It was, and is, inferior to the F-15

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process
as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including
the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

There are 3000+ orders for the F-35. They have not been paid for,
because payment is due on delivery.

It will not be canceled, the war on terrorism is expensive, but the US
is quite capable of affording it without impacting other programs

The UK is planning on replacing its excellent, but old, Harrier
fleet with the F-35

Al Minyard

On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message . com...
because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly!


Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c in
WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring any
bells? Moron.

Rob

Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so current French
aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there.

Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of the art and
are clearly inferior to their US counterparts.

Al Minyard

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the
first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while
inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The
D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was
certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time.
After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who
racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft
against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and
Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22
are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. And
quoting unverified numbers from a war that France lost in record time
does little to bolster your case.

Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales
of the F-35.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?



Regards...

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

The partnership agreements concern technology transfer and workshare on the
development of the production article. No money has yet transferred hands
for any production aircraft, and NO ORDERS have been made yet. The Bush
administration is even studying canceling the thing in favour of an expanded
Block-60 F-16 purchase and UCAV's - not ouside the bounds of reality,
considering how big the budget defecit has become during the 'war on
terror'.

Get your facts straight.

Matt