Is this the death of GA

On Feb 24, 11:00*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Yep, there's always an example of some catastrophe that happened somewhere
that should make every civilized convenience illegal.

Iowa City is the oldest airport west of the Mississippi still in its
original location. *The FBO has fueled aircraft in T-hangars (with the big
door open, of course) since before World War II, by my estimation, without
mishap. * It's called "service", and yes, it's a pain in the butt to go to
the hangars, raise the door, and fuel the planes -- but thank God our FBO
hasn't yet used "safety" and "liability" as an excuse to be lazy, as so many
other businesses have.

Is there a slight risk to fueling in an unheated, outdoor hangar with the
big door open? * I don't know -- but if you use a grounding strap/cord, and
you use approved fueling techniques and equipment, and you pump the fuel
from a professional-grade tank/pump, can you even *measure* a risk that
small? * Has any aircraft self-immolated while being properly fueled? * Has
any car?

I grow weary of this country wringing its hands over crap like this, while
the real issues of the day aren't even discussed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

That's a lot of ifs Jay. Is the convenience, in this case really
worth it? Is your insurance company aware of this practice? My guess
is no. I would have to go with Matt on this one, Jay.

Wil

"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news3rwj.48557$9j6.45072@attbi_s22:

This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Yep, there's always an example of some catastrophe that happened
somewhere that should make every civilized convenience illegal.

If any more evidence were requited that you are a complete idiot, this is
it.

Bertie

On Feb 24, 11:00 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

Is there a slight risk to fueling in an unheated, outdoor hangar with the
big door open? I don't know -- but if you use a grounding strap/cord, and
you use approved fueling techniques and equipment, and you pump the fuel
from a professional-grade tank/pump, can you even *measure* a risk that
small? Has any aircraft self-immolated while being properly fueled? Has
any car?

I grow weary of this country wringing its hands over crap like this, while
the real issues of the day aren't even discussed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Risk is defined as probability x potential loss. So, despite there
being very little risk that my rifle will go off when I'm cleaning it,
I still never point it at anyone or anything that would be harmed.

The probability is low (I'm cleaning it, and thus have cleared it,
removed the bolt, etc), but the potential damage is death. Thus it's
risky.

So I don't skateboard -- the probability that I will fall and bust my
assets is near 100%, though the potential damage ranges from minor to
catastrophic (that falling on the railing with legs spread
thing !!!!).

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I hadn't thought through this
refueling-in-the-hangar thing much, but some of the replies make
sense. While the probability may be low (as evidenced by your
experience), the potential damage is very high -- lost airplanes (T-
Hangars are by definition multiple), buildings, equipment, tools,
cases of oil, Swimsuit Edition calendars -- the works.

And while it's true that "society" has become a bit too "worried"
about everything, perhaps we reasonable people (pilots) should make
every attempt to reduce the perception of risk. If a String of T-
hangars lights up the Iowa sky, think of the gleeful doom the local
news will engender.

"If you look behind me, Carlita, you will see the flames rising 200
FEET into the air, spreading a witches brew of toxic materials -- the
airport manager won't talk to me on camera, but we learned that the
each of the several dozen Cessnas parked inside are worth at least
$500,000, and each has about 800 gallons of HIGHLY FLAMMABLE JET fuel
on board. Whoa! Did you hear that? We'll move our cameras a bit..."

"Wow.. Scary stuff Jim -- we'll keep you updated with all the latest
from the scene..."



Dan

Matt Whiting wrote:
total loss.

This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Matt

Not only common sense but its written into the local fire codes
in virtually every city or town.

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

Ya know, Kontiki, normally I agree with your posts -- but this is just plain
crap.

Have you ever WORKED on a plane, in a shop? Have you ever had to de-fuel a
plane to work on it? Where do you think this happens?

I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let the
fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another jug
under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens until
the tank is empty.

This goes on day after day, week after week, year after year, at hundreds of
airports across America. WITH THE DOOR CLOSED. God almighty, if we were
to believe your nonsense, the newspapers would be full of 5-alarm fires at
airports.

Now, you're telling me that refueling an airplane from a
professionally-built fuel truck, properly grounded, with the big door open,
is DANGEROUS? I find it hard that anyone so risk averse actually flies in
an airplane. Those things crash, you know.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:
I never dug deep to find out why. I can only suppose they didn't want
to lose an airplane AND a building.

That's the rule here, too. We can have it parked right in front of the
hangar but no part of the airplane can be across the door threshold. I
assume it is for the reason you state.

Our FBO routinely fuels owner's aircraft in their hangars. Always has.

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return from a
flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up on the door.
Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down, the plane was
fully fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the month. God, I miss
those days...

I think gas was, like, $1.74 per gallon -- and we bitched about it!

ELM, which is only 30 or so miles from where I live, lost a maintenance
hangar, 4 airplanes and lots of tools and spare parts due to a fueling
accident with an airplane inside the hangar. With the fuel spreading
across the floor, once it was ignited the hangar went up almost instantly.
Nobody was seriously injured, but even with the airport fire department
literally next door, the hangar was a total loss.

What was the fuel doing on the floor, and what ignited it?


This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.


I believe this is one rule that is grounded in common nonsense, and/or
simple negative fantasy. If your refueling procedure allows ANY chance of
fire, or even significant spill, that procedure needs to be changed
immediately.

Even aircraft tied down on a flight line are MUCH too close to each other to
afford a fire.

If we have any concerns of aircraft stored indoors, then we need to be
completely defueling them prior to storage or maintenance, just like the
airlines do. It would be just as easy to argue leaving fuel in an aircraft
while stored indoors is an unacceptable hazard as well. Then if a fire does
get started in the hanger, the aircraft is much less likely to contribute to
the problem.

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:
I never dug deep to find out why. I can only suppose they didn't
want to lose an airplane AND a building.

That's the rule here, too. We can have it parked right in front of
the hangar but no part of the airplane can be across the door
threshold. I assume it is for the reason you state.

Our FBO routinely fuels owner's aircraft in their hangars. Always
has.

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return
from a flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up
on the door. Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down,
the plane was fully fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the
month. God, I miss those days...

I think gas was, like, $1.74 per gallon -- and we bitched about it!

ELM, which is only 30 or so miles from where I live, lost a
maintenance hangar, 4 airplanes and lots of tools and spare parts due
to a fueling accident with an airplane inside the hangar. With the
fuel spreading across the floor, once it was ignited the hangar went
up almost instantly. Nobody was seriously injured, but even with the
airport fire department literally next door, the hangar was a total
loss.

What was the fuel doing on the floor, and what ignited it?


This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.


I believe this is one rule that is grounded in common nonsense, and/or
simple negative fantasy. If your refueling procedure allows ANY chance
of fire, or even significant spill, that procedure needs to be changed
immediately.

Even aircraft tied down on a flight line are MUCH too close to each
other to afford a fire.

If we have any concerns of aircraft stored indoors, then we need to be
completely defueling them prior to storage or maintenance, just like
the airlines do. It would be just as easy to argue leaving fuel in an
aircraft while stored indoors is an unacceptable hazard as well. Then
if a fire does get started in the hanger, the aircraft is much less
likely to contribute to the problem.


There are a lot of factors in play during refueling that are not with
fuel at rest. One is the static charge induced by merely moving the fuel
down the hose, the vapor produced by pumping and the possible
concentration to a good ignition mixture in an enclosed space.


Bertie

Jay Honeck writes:

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return from a
flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up on the door.
Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down, the plane was fully
fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the month. God, I miss those
days...

How does it work now?

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jay Honeck writes:

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return
from a flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up
on the door. Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down,
the plane was fully fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the
month. God, I miss those days...

How does it work now?


Oh it;s just like getting a top up on your mobile.


Bertie

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return from a
flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up on the door.
Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down, the plane was
fully
fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the month. God, I miss those
days...

How does it work now?

If you want fuel at your hangar, you call the FBO. If they're not busy,
maybe they'll be there within the hour. Most people drag their planes to
the self-service pump to save a buck.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"