Is this the death of GA

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:54:18 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:



It is against fire code to construct an aircraft or perform major
maintenance in a hangar that is not equipped with a sprinkler system. I
know this, because our local EAA chapter has been looking into constructing
a hangar, and to do more than final assembly will not be allowed without
sprinklers, which of course costs big money.

Is that a local code? Neither of the A&P's I use have sprinklers,
and they run legit businesses that do major repairs.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:54:18 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:



It is against fire code to construct an aircraft or perform major
maintenance in a hangar that is not equipped with a sprinkler system. I
know this, because our local EAA chapter has been looking into
constructing
a hangar, and to do more than final assembly will not be allowed without
sprinklers, which of course costs big money.

Is that a local code? Neither of the A&P's I use have sprinklers,
and they run legit businesses that do major repairs.

As far as I know, NC fire code. Could be that an older building is
grandfathered in, but to build new, there was no doubt that there would have
to be sprinklers.
--
Jim in NC

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:54:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

Here even with our small airport it's not permitted.
Over at MBS they move planes outside to de fuel them. They did that
when I had the Deb weighed for a new W&B.

OTOH we can build plane in the hangars. If the hangar is properly
ventilated we can even paint in it...I only know of one so equipped
and it's prohibited in all others. More than likely due to the fact
you'd be painting planes three hangars either side of you. (they
aren't real tight)


Ya know, Kontiki, normally I agree with your posts -- but this is just plain
crap.

Have you ever WORKED on a plane, in a shop? Have you ever had to de-fuel a
plane to work on it? Where do you think this happens?

I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let the
fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another jug
under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens until
the tank is empty.

It's done ,but in most places it's against the fire code.
The FBO changed a quick drain on one of the tanks on the Deb at
annual. He just unscrewed it and I stuck my finger in the dike until
he had the new one lined up and ready to go. He even remarked we
should be doing that outdoors, but he didn't want to move so many
planes to get it out and back in.


This goes on day after day, week after week, year after year, at hundreds of
airports across America. WITH THE DOOR CLOSED. God almighty, if we were
to believe your nonsense, the newspapers would be full of 5-alarm fires at
airports.

Now, you're telling me that refueling an airplane from a
professionally-built fuel truck, properly grounded, with the big door open,
is DANGEROUS? I find it hard that anyone so risk averse actually flies in
an airplane. Those things crash, you know.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:54:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

Here even with our small airport it's not permitted.
Over at MBS they move planes outside to de fuel them. They did that
when I had the Deb weighed for a new W&B.

OTOH we can build plane in the hangars. If the hangar is properly
ventilated we can even paint in it...I only know of one so equipped
and it's prohibited in all others. More than likely due to the fact
you'd be painting planes three hangars either side of you. (they
aren't real tight)


Ya know, Kontiki, normally I agree with your posts -- but this is just
plain
crap.

Have you ever WORKED on a plane, in a shop? Have you ever had to de-fuel
a
plane to work on it? Where do you think this happens?

I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let
the
fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another jug
under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens
until
the tank is empty.

It's done ,but in most places it's against the fire code.
The FBO changed a quick drain on one of the tanks on the Deb at
annual. He just unscrewed it and I stuck my finger in the dike until
he had the new one lined up and ready to go. He even remarked we
should be doing that outdoors, but he didn't want to move so many
planes to get it out and back in.


This goes on day after day, week after week, year after year, at hundreds
of
airports across America. WITH THE DOOR CLOSED. God almighty, if we were
to believe your nonsense, the newspapers would be full of 5-alarm fires at
airports.

Now, you're telling me that refueling an airplane from a
professionally-built fuel truck, properly grounded, with the big door
open,
is DANGEROUS? I find it hard that anyone so risk averse actually flies in
an airplane. Those things crash, you know.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


In case you haven't noticed, the death of aviation has already occurred. It
happened with all the law suits, rising cost of gas prices and scab CFI's
that will fly for nothing. I've been in the industry for over 45 years.
They say there is a lot of money in aviation. I know that because I put a
lot of it in there! I am appalled that you can't make a decent living in
the industry. Oh yes, there are a few souls that have made it, but it's
like the lotto, not a planned definite process. I can't believe that I have
spent so much time and money in the industry and can't make it there. In
what other industry can you invest almost $100k in training and experience
achieve, what is called "the PhD of Aviation, the ATP", all the CFI's
offered by the FAA and still can't command more then minimum wags?? The
AOPA, FAA, NAFI and defunct organizations such as NPA, etc have all fallen
down on the job, BIG TIME. All useless to foster the community. I go into
a flight school and immediately get the feeling that "I don't want to be
here". You do not feel welcome! All these managers need serious marketing
and business education. And pilots need to start DEMANDING a living wage,
or just don't fly. Students need to expect to PAY for training, $100 per hr
for an instructor is not unreasonable. This about how much you would pay any
other professional. How much would you pay a plumber. Then think about how
much you pay a CFI and gripe about it! NUTS.

--
BobF.
Lincoln actually got it right but was way ahead of his time when he said,
"You can have some of you computer working all of the time and all of your
computer working some of the time but..." It was he that said that, wasn't
it?

And pilots need to start DEMANDING a living wage, or just don't fly.
Students need to expect to PAY for training, $100 per hr for an instructor
is not unreasonable. This about how much you would pay any other
professional. How much would you pay a plumber. Then think about how
much you pay a CFI and gripe about it! NUTS.

The part that will always cripple any effort to raise the pay of flight
instructors (and pilots in general) is that flying is *fun*.

The reason lawyers make a lot of money is because being a lawyer sucks. The
reason plumbers make a lot of money is because being a plumber sucks. The
reason flying doesn't pay a lot is because flying is fun, and there are
thousands of us who willingly pay to do it.

I don't see folks lining up to pay $120 per hour to solder pipes, or fill
out paperwork, but there are quite a few of us paying at least that to fly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Bob F." wrote in message
. ..
In case you haven't noticed, the death of aviation has already occurred.
It
happened with all the law suits, rising cost of gas prices and scab CFI's
that will fly for nothing. I've been in the industry for over 45 years.
They say there is a lot of money in aviation. I know that because I put a
lot of it in there! I am appalled that you can't make a decent living in
the industry. Oh yes, there are a few souls that have made it, but it's
like the lotto, not a planned definite process. I can't believe that I
have spent so much time and money in the industry and can't make it there.
In what other industry can you invest almost $100k in training and
experience achieve, what is called "the PhD of Aviation, the ATP", all the
CFI's offered by the FAA and still can't command more then minimum wags??
The AOPA, FAA, NAFI and defunct organizations such as NPA, etc have all
fallen down on the job, BIG TIME. All useless to foster the community. I
go into a flight school and immediately get the feeling that "I don't want
to be here". You do not feel welcome! All these managers need serious
marketing and business education. And pilots need to start DEMANDING a
living wage, or just don't fly. Students need to expect to PAY for
training, $100 per hr for an instructor is not unreasonable. This about
how much you would pay any other professional. How much would you pay a
plumber. Then think about how much you pay a CFI and gripe about it!
NUTS.

--
BobF.
Lincoln actually got it right but was way ahead of his time when he said,
"You can have some of you computer working all of the time and all of your
computer working some of the time but..." It was he that said that,
wasn't it?

While the ATP can cost a lot of money to obtain, a CFI is not the same. I
see ads for CFI training for 3000.00 That being said, I too agree that CFI
are way underpaid. I don't think that should be paid on the scale of a
lawyer or a plumber but rather on a teacher scale, somewhere between 40-100k
If the industry wants to attract qualified committed people, they need to
make the teachers pay something that they can live on or else they will have
the issues they have now where instructors are just building hours to move
on.

John

Bob F. wrote:
snip
You do not feel welcome! All these managers need serious marketing and
business education. And pilots need to start DEMANDING a living wage,
or just don't fly. Students need to expect to PAY for training, $100
per hr for an instructor is not unreasonable. This about how much you
would pay any other professional. How much would you pay a plumber.
Then think about how much you pay a CFI and gripe about it! NUTS.


Very well stated sir. People willing to work for peanuts deserve
what they get while the rest of us moved on to more lucrative jobs.

Bob F. wrote:
Students need to expect to PAY for training, $100 per hr
for an instructor is not unreasonable. This about how much you would pay any
other professional. How much would you pay a plumber. Then think about how
much you pay a CFI and gripe about it! NUTS.

CFI is largely an entry level job for prospective airline pilots. I've
had lots of entry level jobs, but very few that paid $100/hr. What other
industry commands $100/hr. for someone with 300 hrs. of practical experience?

That said, when I get flight training, I usually get it from instructors
who are in the business of flight training and have thousands of hours and
decades of flight training experience. These guys make a good living from
flight training and I'm more than happy to pay a premium price for their
knowledge and experience.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200802/1

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:
I never dug deep to find out why. I can only suppose they didn't want
to lose an airplane AND a building.

That's the rule here, too. We can have it parked right in front of the
hangar but no part of the airplane can be across the door threshold. I
assume it is for the reason you state.

Our FBO routinely fuels owner's aircraft in their hangars. Always has.

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return from a
flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up on the door.
Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down, the plane was
fully fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the month. God, I miss
those days...

I think gas was, like, $1.74 per gallon -- and we bitched about it!

ELM, which is only 30 or so miles from where I live, lost a maintenance
hangar, 4 airplanes and lots of tools and spare parts due to a fueling
accident with an airplane inside the hangar. With the fuel spreading
across the floor, once it was ignited the hangar went up almost instantly.
Nobody was seriously injured, but even with the airport fire department
literally next door, the hangar was a total loss.

What was the fuel doing on the floor, and what ignited it?


This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.


I believe this is one rule that is grounded in common nonsense, and/or
simple negative fantasy. If your refueling procedure allows ANY chance of
fire, or even significant spill, that procedure needs to be changed
immediately.

Even aircraft tied down on a flight line are MUCH too close to each other to
afford a fire.

If we have any concerns of aircraft stored indoors, then we need to be
completely defueling them prior to storage or maintenance, just like the
airlines do. It would be just as easy to argue leaving fuel in an aircraft
while stored indoors is an unacceptable hazard as well. Then if a fire does
get started in the hanger, the aircraft is much less likely to contribute to
the problem.

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:
I never dug deep to find out why. I can only suppose they didn't
want to lose an airplane AND a building.

That's the rule here, too. We can have it parked right in front of
the hangar but no part of the airplane can be across the door
threshold. I assume it is for the reason you state.

Our FBO routinely fuels owner's aircraft in their hangars. Always
has.

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return
from a flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up
on the door. Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down,
the plane was fully fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the
month. God, I miss those days...

I think gas was, like, $1.74 per gallon -- and we bitched about it!

ELM, which is only 30 or so miles from where I live, lost a
maintenance hangar, 4 airplanes and lots of tools and spare parts due
to a fueling accident with an airplane inside the hangar. With the
fuel spreading across the floor, once it was ignited the hangar went
up almost instantly. Nobody was seriously injured, but even with the
airport fire department literally next door, the hangar was a total
loss.

What was the fuel doing on the floor, and what ignited it?


This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.


I believe this is one rule that is grounded in common nonsense, and/or
simple negative fantasy. If your refueling procedure allows ANY chance
of fire, or even significant spill, that procedure needs to be changed
immediately.

Even aircraft tied down on a flight line are MUCH too close to each
other to afford a fire.

If we have any concerns of aircraft stored indoors, then we need to be
completely defueling them prior to storage or maintenance, just like
the airlines do. It would be just as easy to argue leaving fuel in an
aircraft while stored indoors is an unacceptable hazard as well. Then
if a fire does get started in the hanger, the aircraft is much less
likely to contribute to the problem.


There are a lot of factors in play during refueling that are not with
fuel at rest. One is the static charge induced by merely moving the fuel
down the hose, the vapor produced by pumping and the possible
concentration to a good ignition mixture in an enclosed space.


Bertie