The Angry White Man

On Feb 25, 5:19 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

My WW2 reading was buttressed by my Father's experience (DEs and Subs
in the Pacific).

Hats off to him, then. You don't hear nearly enough about what a
crucial difference the "Silent Service" made during the war years.
Have you read Blair's _Silent Victory_? It's probably the best single
history of U.S. sub operations in the Pacific during WWII, and if you
haven't it's well worth the read. Just got reprinted a few years
back, so you can even get a copy without promising someone your
firstborn son.

-JTD

No, though I should.

I don't even know which ships he served on -- he had the names
tattooed on his forearms (before everybody had tattoos). He died
before the "greatest generation" started talking.

As one of them said, "Now they won't shut up!"

:-)

Though if you're familar with Band of brothers, you know about Dick
Winters.

he came and spoke to an OCS Class I taught -- talk about a humble guy.
One of the candidates asked him to recount his single-handed capture
of a German Battalion...

"Well, they were scared and tired too..."

Different age, then.


Dan

On Feb 25, 5:17 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

Point. One could argue that they're not really functioning at a level
much above the 18th Century armies, but that's not really true
either. My thesis looks like it might have to go back to the drawing
board.


Even the Civil War revolved around the capture of supplies. Jeb Stuart
rode north to find shoes.

Lee hoped to drive the North to sue for peace by attacking the granary
-- the fecund fields of southeastern Pennsylvania.



True, but could they really have sustained *all* of their operations
from NATO stockpiles? Even if they could supply all of their ammo
needs, would they have been able to capture enough food? POL?
Clothing? Spare parts?


We (NATO) assumed the Warsaw Pact's entire strategy was based on
seizure of key supplies and production centers. So the answer would
have to be "yes."


My argument was that it's probably been a
long time since somebody actually made a buck, so to speak, by going
to war, and so (contra the OP) you have to look at dimensions other
than the economic to see why wars happen. I may have to rethink that
a bit in light of the examples you posted above, particularly with
respect to warfare in relatively unindustrialized countries.

I don't think anyone can successfully argue that war pays for itself
in the short or even moderately long run (that goes for the "blood for
oil!" wackos).

But, as England discovered in 1763, winning a war can present
unimaginable opportunities that governments are peculiarly adroit at
squandering.

Dan

On Feb 25, 5:27 pm, " wrote:
On Feb 25, 5:19 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

My WW2 reading was buttressed by my Father's experience (DEs and Subs
in the Pacific).

Hats off to him, then. You don't hear nearly enough about what a
crucial difference the "Silent Service" made during the war years.
Have you read Blair's _Silent Victory_? It's probably the best single
history of U.S. sub operations in the Pacific during WWII, and if you
haven't it's well worth the read. Just got reprinted a few years
back, so you can even get a copy without promising someone your
firstborn son.

-JTD

No, though I should.

I don't even know which ships he served on -- he had the names
tattooed on his forearms (before everybody had tattoos). He died
before the "greatest generation" started talking.

It's long, but well worth the time spent. Some newer books do better
at specific aspects of the sub war, but thirty years on Blair's is
still the best single overview. One of the *good* aspects about the
resurgence of interest in the "Greatest Generation" is that they
finally reprinted the blessed thing- when my Dad and I started looking
at sub history you could spend months on the used book trade, and pay
$60 for the total set. Now it's $30 on Amazon...

Though if you're familar with Band of brothers, you know about Dick
Winters.

he came and spoke to an OCS Class I taught -- talk about a humble guy.
One of the candidates asked him to recount his single-handed capture
of a German Battalion...

"Well, they were scared and tired too..."

Different age, then.

Have to look that story up...

-JTD

Dan

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:eb4e7880-252d-4956-
:

On Feb 25, 1:11 pm, " wrote:
On Feb 25, 4:08 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



I think Old Bush's "New World Order" could have
re-vamped the UN, to unify the planet better., it's
time has come.
Ken

Unify the planet under...?
And what of those who would rather not be unified...?
No Thanks.
Dan

Straightfoward question to Dan.
Do you want your kids to shoot the other kids
before discussing an issue?


Deeplymoved by the latest Rambo episode, eh?


bertie

" wrote in
:

On Feb 25, 5:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:e2c255ce-25e4-4a87-9a6a-

m:

On Feb 25, 2:30 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:aa1f5080-a55c-40e0-954a-647c765d1565

@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.c



om:

On Feb 25, 1:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
news:050125fe-1edc-4441-
:

That's a case of too much power, not enough brains.
1% of those in control, say we must build 1000's of
ICBM's because the other are guys are.
Yet, 99% of the people on both sides have not motive
or desire to harm the other guys, apart from being
told they should.

What bout fuedin'?

Bertie

Now that's jes plain fun...

You reckin?

bertie

A yup -- I'm in Pennsylucky -- we knows all abouts feudin'!

Pennsylucky? OK...

Lucky iffin you don't get shot by a stray 30-06, ya mean!

Bertie

I LOVE my 30-06... best all around cartridge, ever.

Except for 105mm. No that will end a fued, right quick!


Hmm, Can you smell the paper mill from where you live?


Bertie

On Feb 25, 9:24 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote :

On Feb 25, 5:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:e2c255ce-25e4-4a87-9a6a-





m:

On Feb 25, 2:30 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:aa1f5080-a55c-40e0-954a-647c765d1565

@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.c

om:

On Feb 25, 1:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
news:050125fe-1edc-4441-
:

That's a case of too much power, not enough brains.
1% of those in control, say we must build 1000's of
ICBM's because the other are guys are.
Yet, 99% of the people on both sides have not motive
or desire to harm the other guys, apart from being
told they should.

What bout fuedin'?

Bertie

Now that's jes plain fun...

You reckin?

bertie

A yup -- I'm in Pennsylucky -- we knows all abouts feudin'!

Pennsylucky? OK...

Lucky iffin you don't get shot by a stray 30-06, ya mean!

Bertie

I LOVE my 30-06... best all around cartridge, ever.

Except for 105mm. No that will end a fued, right quick!

Hmm, Can you smell the paper mill from where you live?

Bertie

yeah.

I love the smell of a mill in the morning.

Smells... Like.....





Victory.

" wrote in
:

On Feb 25, 9:24 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:24f21d94-8e49-4e1b-9a96-b7dd8495c153
@m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.c
om:

On Feb 25, 5:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:e2c255ce-25e4-4a87-9a6a-





m:

On Feb 25, 2:30 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:aa1f5080-a55c-40e0-954a-647c765d1565

@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.c

om:

On Feb 25, 1:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
news:050125fe-1edc-4441-
:

That's a case of too much power, not enough brains.
1% of those in control, say we must build 1000's of
ICBM's because the other are guys are.
Yet, 99% of the people on both sides have not motive
or desire to harm the other guys, apart from being
told they should.

What bout fuedin'?

Bertie

Now that's jes plain fun...

You reckin?

bertie

A yup -- I'm in Pennsylucky -- we knows all abouts feudin'!

Pennsylucky? OK...

Lucky iffin you don't get shot by a stray 30-06, ya mean!

Bertie

I LOVE my 30-06... best all around cartridge, ever.

Except for 105mm. No that will end a fued, right quick!

Hmm, Can you smell the paper mill from where you live?

Bertie

yeah.

I love the smell of a mill in the morning.

Smells... Like.....





Victory.


So, you're an Altoid. I used to fly in there ( down the ridge) in a 310
full of cancelled checkes every day. Interesting airport!

Bertie

On Feb 25, 10:11 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote :

On Feb 25, 9:24 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:24f21d94-8e49-4e1b-9a96-b7dd8495c153

@m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.c



om:

On Feb 25, 5:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:e2c255ce-25e4-4a87-9a6a-



m:

On Feb 25, 2:30 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:aa1f5080-a55c-40e0-954a-647c765d1565

@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.c

om:

On Feb 25, 1:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
news:050125fe-1edc-4441-
:

That's a case of too much power, not enough brains.
1% of those in control, say we must build 1000's of
ICBM's because the other are guys are.
Yet, 99% of the people on both sides have not motive
or desire to harm the other guys, apart from being
told they should.

What bout fuedin'?

Bertie

Now that's jes plain fun...

You reckin?

bertie

A yup -- I'm in Pennsylucky -- we knows all abouts feudin'!

Pennsylucky? OK...

Lucky iffin you don't get shot by a stray 30-06, ya mean!

Bertie

I LOVE my 30-06... best all around cartridge, ever.

Except for 105mm. No that will end a fued, right quick!

Hmm, Can you smell the paper mill from where you live?

Bertie

yeah.

I love the smell of a mill in the morning.

Smells... Like.....

Victory.

So, you're an Altoid. I used to fly in there ( down the ridge) in a 310
full of cancelled checkes every day. Interesting airport!

Bertie

Actually, no...

I'm south of Pittsburgh along the Mon, where the coal fires burn to
keep the lights on. Not from here but it pays good.

What's an altoid?

Dan

Hi Jeff, studied your post.

On Feb 25, 1:34 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:
On Feb 25, 4:08 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



On Feb 25, 11:30 am, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

On Feb 25, 1:07 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

On Feb 25, 9:29 am, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

On Feb 23, 1:04 pm, " wrote:

On Feb 23, 12:45 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

I think war is usually a business mistake, nowadays.
Ken

Right, and that is always the overriding concern that trumps the war
option, I suppose?

Certainly that was the case in 1861, 1914, and 1939 -- years devoid of
business interests.

Every time that argument comes up, I'm more and more tempted to go
digging through the college textbooks I have in storage until I find
one reading that mentions a very compelling book, written by a well-
respected economist, that was very popular in its time. It carefully
explained how, due to the interconnected nature of international
trade, widespread war was now impossible because it would call too
much economic damage to everyone involved.
Written in 1912.
-JTD

That's a case of too much power, not enough brains.
1% of those in control, say we must build 1000's of
ICBM's because the other are guys are.

ICBMs were involved in the buildup to World Wars I and II? Do tell.

Yet, 99% of the people on both sides have not motive
or desire to harm the other guys, apart from being
told they should.

Perhaps true. Even probably true. And almost certainly true of
Americans and Chinese today, or most people all over the world for
that matter. But war happened anyway. So what has changed in the
past 60 years, or even the past 30, that prevents such a situation
from devolving into war?
JTD

I'm lookin at history from 5000BC to the present.
Mongols slaughtered 30 million chinese using a
sword (not the same one), hence the sword is a
weapon of mass destruction, that's why I think
one should take care to the analysis of the 1000
ancedotal tactical battles, humans have fought.

Okay, hang on.

In your original post, you implied that wars weren't going to happen
any more, because they would be a "business mistake", that the world
had gotten too interdependent for a wider war. Others (including
myself) pointed out that for most of human history, war has been a bad
move, economically, and that in fact your thesis had been put forward
early in the 20th Century just before the most devastating wars the
human race has ever fought-

Not really WW1 and 2 were sissy fights, historically
serious war is totally genocidal.

and that wars keep happening anyway,
besides being really bad for business in general. In the post you
replied to, I pointed those things out, and asked what you thought had
changed in the years since that meant that this time, business
concerns would trump out, and wars wouldn't happen.

In response, you're invoking 5000 years of history, and calling us to
analyze the wars that humans have fought.

From the formation of city states (~5000BC) to the
present, ~7000 years. Each empire believed "Might
is Right", and War = Strength, including economical
but that never happened, otherwise the world would be
unified by force.
The world can be unified but by Benevolent Capitalism,
(according to our simulations).

That's a non sequieter, but let's look at it for a second. The last
time anyone could make a case that "war pays for war" between
civilized states with a straight face was in the early 18th Century,
when conscript armies under folks like Blenheim were merrily marching
back and forth blowing the Hell out of civilized Europe. They spent
most of their time "levying contributions", which is a nice way of
saying "we marched into this state and forcibly stripped it of pretty
much anything of value to feed and pay the troops". Since the armies
didn't require a terrible lot of manufactured goods that couldn't be
captured and since international trade wasn't a big deal at the time,
this meant that an army in the field could more or less sustain itself
indefinitely with minimal expenditure from home. Any territory it
captured was more or less gravy for the homeland. As you can imagine,
this led to some awfully long wars.

I read a theory about Spain stealing gold etc. from
America. Spain didn't need to develope a home
based GNP and when the America's gold ran out,
everyone they were purchasing goods from were
far more economically more powerful, because
they had a GNP, Spain had very little.

*After* that time, though, the balance tips the other way. Sustaining
an army in the field takes a lot of manpower, a lot of high-end
manufactured goods, and a lot of mundane supplies like food and
clothing- and you have to supply those on your own now, because armies
have gotten big enough that you can't gather what you need by "levying
contributions"/bank robbery on an international scale. All of that
takes money, and lots and lots of it. All of this means that since (I
would say) about the mid 18th Century, fighting and winning a war is
almost always going to cost more money than any *economic* benefit you
could get out of it.

[All of this applies, of course, to wars between cultures with roughly
equal technology. I haven't looked at the figures in detail, but it's
entirely possible that some of the colonial wars that pitted breech-
loading rifles against spears ended up being economic wins in the long
run. Although conquest was generally one thing, pacification
another.]

I'm still trying to figure out why somebody attacked
the Taliban, it wasn't my decision.

The thing is, though, that wars still happen between industrialized
countries, and have for a long time. Even though they're economic
losers, they still happen. Because they can bring political benefits,
like more territory for the Big Man to rule or showing that your
country is not to be trifled with. Because they can fulfill
somebody's idea of national destiny. Because people do stupid things,
don't consider the consequences that their actions might have years
down the road, and get painted into corners. And any of those things
could still happen between the U.S. and China.

I devoutly hope they don't, because the one thing I do think you're
right about is that such a war would very likely be ruinous for both
sides and because I think wars in general are to be avoided, even if
they're sometimes necessary. But saying that it can't happen is
wrong, and dangerous because if we assume it can't happen we may not
be vigilant enough to keep it from happening.

So, with the above in mind: why, specifically, do you think that the
U.S. and China are so economically interdependent as to render war
between them impossible?

I claimed war would be a bad business decision,
only nothing is impossible,

-JTD

Regards
Ken

" wrote in
:

On Feb 25, 10:11 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:7ffbdfc9-16bf-4444-bcaf-

om:

On Feb 25, 9:24 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:24f21d94-8e49-4e1b-9a96-b7dd8495c153

@m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.c



om:

On Feb 25, 5:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:e2c255ce-25e4-4a87-9a6a-



m:

On Feb 25, 2:30 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
" wrote
innews:aa1f5080-a55c-40e0-954a-647c765d1565

@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.c

om:

On Feb 25, 1:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
news:050125fe-1edc-4441-
:

That's a case of too much power, not enough brains.
1% of those in control, say we must build 1000's of
ICBM's because the other are guys are.
Yet, 99% of the people on both sides have not motive
or desire to harm the other guys, apart from being
told they should.

What bout fuedin'?

Bertie

Now that's jes plain fun...

You reckin?

bertie

A yup -- I'm in Pennsylucky -- we knows all abouts feudin'!

Pennsylucky? OK...

Lucky iffin you don't get shot by a stray 30-06, ya mean!

Bertie

I LOVE my 30-06... best all around cartridge, ever.

Except for 105mm. No that will end a fued, right quick!

Hmm, Can you smell the paper mill from where you live?

Bertie

yeah.

I love the smell of a mill in the morning.

Smells... Like.....

Victory.

So, you're an Altoid. I used to fly in there ( down the ridge) in a
310 full of cancelled checkes every day. Interesting airport!

Bertie

Actually, no...

I'm south of Pittsburgh along the Mon, where the coal fires burn to
keep the lights on. Not from here but it pays good.

What's an altoid?


OK, I know your area now. An Altoid is from Altoona, of course!

Bertie