Stalls and Thoughts

"Bob F." wrote in
:

That's exactly right Bertie. I never ran into anyone who knew that
except for a few engineers at Boeing. I'd love to meet you sometime.
I was fortunate enough to be able to take all the aero engineering
courses they offered. It was great. Most of the instructors were old
707 engineers. I had great respect for them. They had all kinds of
rules of thumb that I never hear about. I have a note book full of
them. I don't even see reference to them in the the my bible, the
NAVWEPS.


I got a mole at Boeing. A rocket scientist, in fact. Meganerd. We grew up
together. This guy built a Piet in his basement starting at the age of 14.
( I helped) The things he found to do with Estes rockets and various
explosives as a teen were numerous and exciting! Especially to the local
cops.
He's just left Boeing to work for some millionaire on a commercial space
flight project. In texas I think.
I can't understand why they don't teach this in a bit more detail, though.
There are very few airline pilots who understand this nowadays. There's an
OK-ish FAA circular on it, but causes and recoveries ae not gone into in
any great detail. They seem to be happy to let the FMC look after it.

BTW, ever get a yaw damper failure in the 707? I've doen them in the sim in
the 727 and they were pretty exciting.
I've been told the 707 was worse.

Bertie

Yes, you learn a lot about Dutch rolls real quick. ...and I did experience
a elevator hydraulic cylinder stall once in a 707. That was an experience.

--
BobF.
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
"Bob F." wrote in
:

That's exactly right Bertie. I never ran into anyone who knew that
except for a few engineers at Boeing. I'd love to meet you sometime.
I was fortunate enough to be able to take all the aero engineering
courses they offered. It was great. Most of the instructors were old
707 engineers. I had great respect for them. They had all kinds of
rules of thumb that I never hear about. I have a note book full of
them. I don't even see reference to them in the the my bible, the
NAVWEPS.


I got a mole at Boeing. A rocket scientist, in fact. Meganerd. We grew up
together. This guy built a Piet in his basement starting at the age of
14.
( I helped) The things he found to do with Estes rockets and various
explosives as a teen were numerous and exciting! Especially to the local
cops.
He's just left Boeing to work for some millionaire on a commercial space
flight project. In texas I think.
I can't understand why they don't teach this in a bit more detail, though.
There are very few airline pilots who understand this nowadays. There's an
OK-ish FAA circular on it, but causes and recoveries ae not gone into in
any great detail. They seem to be happy to let the FMC look after it.

BTW, ever get a yaw damper failure in the 707? I've doen them in the sim
in
the 727 and they were pretty exciting.
I've been told the 707 was worse.

Bertie

Bertie,
Did your mole ever tell you the story about Jack Waddell when he took the
maiden 747-100 flight to Farnborough?

--
BobF.
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
"Bob F." wrote in
:

That's exactly right Bertie. I never ran into anyone who knew that
except for a few engineers at Boeing. I'd love to meet you sometime.
I was fortunate enough to be able to take all the aero engineering
courses they offered. It was great. Most of the instructors were old
707 engineers. I had great respect for them. They had all kinds of
rules of thumb that I never hear about. I have a note book full of
them. I don't even see reference to them in the the my bible, the
NAVWEPS.


I got a mole at Boeing. A rocket scientist, in fact. Meganerd. We grew up
together. This guy built a Piet in his basement starting at the age of
14.
( I helped) The things he found to do with Estes rockets and various
explosives as a teen were numerous and exciting! Especially to the local
cops.
He's just left Boeing to work for some millionaire on a commercial space
flight project. In texas I think.
I can't understand why they don't teach this in a bit more detail, though.
There are very few airline pilots who understand this nowadays. There's an
OK-ish FAA circular on it, but causes and recoveries ae not gone into in
any great detail. They seem to be happy to let the FMC look after it.

BTW, ever get a yaw damper failure in the 707? I've doen them in the sim
in
the 727 and they were pretty exciting.
I've been told the 707 was worse.

Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bob F. wrote:
"Generally"?, "most certainly"?, I'd say "in one case". The other way
around is correct. That is "if you are in the area of reverse command,
you are dragging it in". Notwithstanding that the phrase includes the
notion of approaching and/or landing. The coffin corner is also not on
the back side of the power curve. It is at the asymptote and you can
never get into the back side. That's why it a corner. It is certainly
not referred to as "dragging it in" there. Been there with the best
test pilots in the world in a 747-400 while I was testing the 400. No
one has ever referred to is as that.

You're kidding right?

I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve.

Well, it;s not a tech term, is it? It's slang. This is turning into the
three blind guys and the elephant thing.. I still don't even like doing
stabilised apprlaches in single at all. I see them as tanatmount to
dragging it in and of course, if there;s nowhere to land on the approach,
an engine failure will result in the smae result on either..


Bertie

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not
enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?

Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not
enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?

Kind of , but the bottom side isn;t exactly a stall, it's also a mach
buffet. the main distinction being it happens at a higher than normally
indicated airspeed, and more crucially, a lesser angle of attack. The net
effect is the same, but it's important to distinguish between the two since
the picture when it happens is substantially different.

Just in case any of you guys are thinking of a VLJ.


Bertie

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse

However: ormal and short field landin gin the Bo...F33, Deb, and A36
(IF flown according to the POH) are all at well less than maximum
endurance. This is far from dragging it in which was giving the ASF
fits about "dragging it in for short field landings" which are flown
well under max endurance speed, but are "steep". The short field is
just steeper with more power. However in neither case should the
plane be in the so called coffin corner as there is enough reserve
power to stop the descent without lowering the nose. That is even
flying a very steep short field approach.
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.

Any of the Bo's get really squirley when flown this way and for a
competent pilot will provide suficient warning, but I'd sure not want
to get one that slow any where on final as that sucker is so close
to stalling the unwary could quickly ruin their insurance companie's
day.

For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

That was one impressive film strip. Although it w asn't long it sure
seemed that way. He did one whale of a job balancing on the tail until
she finally fell over to the left as I recall. When I say balancing
on the tail, for those who haven't seen the video/film clip he wasn't
just nose high.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

Which reminds me, I saw a clip of a 104 where I believe the engine
seized. It started to skid sideways and then *flipped" over onto its
top. Do you know the story behind that?

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely

Well, time to try again. I had this ready to go and the computer ate
it.

When flying a Debonair, F-33, and A36 Bo by the POH all landings are
done well below the max endurance speed, but not to the point where
they don't have enough reserve power to arrest or even change the
descent into a climb. They are however in the area where power
controls rate of descent and pitch controls speed.

correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?


I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely

Well, time to try again. I had this ready to go and the computer ate
it.

When flying a Debonair, F-33, and A36 Bo by the POH all landings are
done well below the max endurance speed, but not to the point where
they don't have enough reserve power to arrest or even change the
descent into a climb. They are however in the area where power
controls rate of descent and pitch controls speed.

correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I think it's in the pilot's code that we're not allowed to say the
airplane flipped over on it's "top" :-))))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 16, 7:31 pm, Roger wrote:
....
I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

I think some tape of that incident was used in this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048364/

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?

I have a clip from "Planes of Flame", where the 104
is tangled in an arrestor net, yaws left, then rolls over
right that looked messy. Is that the clip you mean?
Ken

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com