What would you buy with a 50k budget?

fLY WITH A SENIOUR HE KNOWS HOW TO STAY ALIVE!Margy Natalie brought
next idea :
Never fly anything younger than you are, someone has to have experience :-)

Kirk Ellis wrote:

Are half century old airplanes still viable machines? It sounds scary
buying something that is almost as old as I am.

Mines 55. '53 Pacer that starts getting all new skin this week. Thats
not a pricey as a new engine, but it sure ain't cheap either. New sealed
struts (kills a repetative AD), new windshield, avionics upgrades, also
new wheels, brakes, tires and a paint job when its all done. Then I'll
consider a topend (135hp Lycosaurus)...

My wing internals look brand new, as does the airframe. Geauxing through
the logbooks, lots of stuff (tailwheels, pulleys, cables, wiring,
instruments, never a complete fabric job though) has been replaced
during those 55 years thats kept it in the good shape its still in.
Course its easy to see everything when its naked. Pretty tough to do
with the average spamcan...

The point about the cash is well taken. I may be able to work that
out....of course the "partner" I share the boat with will have
something to say about the equity line of credit.

If I had to rethink it, probably a partnership in a decent retractable
single engined Beech spamcan (just like Newps) or a flying club (ours
had shutdown, had an old Cardinal). I've been in the Lancair's and
flying faster than 240 mph (on 17 gph @ 18k') sure is nice when from
here to there is a far piece (crossing 4 or more states, especially one
like Texas)...

Kirk Ellis explained :
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TROLL TROLLTROLL

Newps wrote:


$50K budget for a cross country machine that won't eat you alive with
fuel bills? Late 50's Bonanza. 180-185 MPH on 11-12 GPH. 150 MPH on
8.5 GPH. Mine's a 64 and I have a bigger engine but the airframes are
basically the same. I would guesstimate $1000-1500 per year in
maintenence outside the annual.

Well, Scott, as the owner of a '49 Bonanza, I'm not so sure I'm so sanguine.

Performance wise, I usually figure 155 MPH on 9.5 GPH so I won't quibble
with you there. But I really think the maintenence between my A model
is can be signifantly different from your S model. Parts for the E-series
engine are becoming difficult. Better hope you don't need parts for the
electric prop or the Hartzel for that matter. Very expensive, if you can
find them at all.

It really also doen't take much to blow the $1000-$1500 in non-annual
maintenace. Priced out a cabin door hinge? Six years ago I spent $500
for a SALVAGED one. An and older plane is just going to have had more
time for things to wear out.

Good thing I've been in love with this hunk of metal for the past 15 years.
It would be tough to justify at this point.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

Frank Stutzman wrote:
Newps wrote:

$50K budget for a cross country machine that won't eat you alive with
fuel bills? Late 50's Bonanza. 180-185 MPH on 11-12 GPH. 150 MPH on
8.5 GPH. Mine's a 64 and I have a bigger engine but the airframes are
basically the same. I would guesstimate $1000-1500 per year in
maintenence outside the annual.

Well, Scott, as the owner of a '49 Bonanza, I'm not so sure I'm so sanguine.

Performance wise, I usually figure 155 MPH on 9.5 GPH so I won't quibble
with you there. But I really think the maintenence between my A model
is can be signifantly different from your S model. Parts for the E-series
engine are becoming difficult. Better hope you don't need parts for the
electric prop or the Hartzel for that matter. Very expensive, if you can
find them at all.

Right, I wouldn't touch an A model(1949) with a 10 foot pole. Stick to
the late 50's or newer like I said and you get at least an IO-470 and no
prop issues. Same basic engine and prop that's in a 182.

Newps wrote:

Right, I wouldn't touch an A model(1949) with a 10 foot pole. Stick to
the late 50's or newer like I said and you get at least an IO-470 and no
prop issues. Same basic engine and prop that's in a 182.

Just to add a few more tedious details...

The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in
airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a more common
injected IO-470-C.

So how much can you spend on a J model Bonanza? I dunno for sure, as I
don't pay too much attention generally. However, I did a 2 minute glance
around the 'net and the cheapest asking price I could find was $55,000.
Given the current market, one could probably could find something cheaper,
but somehow I don't think it would be a lot cheaper.

Besides the very early models (35,A35,B35) are the best flying Bonanzas.
I know because Old Bob told me so ;-) (its an inside joke).

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

"KE" == Kirk Ellis writes:

KE On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:27:48 -0700, "RST Engineering"
KE wrote:

My hit on it is that you wanted a reason to stop flying and the
idiots in this ng gave you that reason.

KE I have never wanted to stop flying, ask my wife. She is tired
KE of hearing about it constantly, but she doesn't understand
KE what it means to me. All she wants is the boat and couldn't
KE care less about flying in a single engine spam can. Next year
KE the boat will be paid for.

Jim is right, you just don't know it yet. The vast majority of people
do not want advice even when they ask for it. They want to be
affirmed with a decision already made. You've decided to quit. But
you don't want the burden of that decision so you're placing it on
this ng, on price, cost, your wife, your boat, whatever.

KE But two years go by very quickly at this age. My pilot friend
KE and I only hope we will be able still fly into our eighties
KE (if we make it that far) as Bob Hoover was able to do. Maybe
KE then we will consider ourselves adequate pilots.

Quit whining. Sell the damn boat if that's really the obstacle, you
can buy another when you can't fly. You're gonna reach age 70 still
day-dreaming and complaining how you couldn't quite do the airplane
thing. It was the boat. My wife. Not enough cash on hand. Had to allow
for repairs at half the purchase price. Yada. Yada.

We made do with one car for years, packed lunches, didn't go out. Now
we have one 17 year old car, a 7 year car, and a 43 year airplane. We
all talk about what we want, but our actions show what is really
important.
--
We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap.
~ Kurt Vonnegut

On Sun, 18 May 2008 15:34:28 -0700, Bob Fry
wrote:

The vast majority of people
do not want advice even when they ask for it. They want to be
affirmed with a decision already made. You've decided to quit. But
you don't want the burden of that decision so you're placing it on
this ng, on price, cost, your wife, your boat, whatever.

Hmmmm.....without my wife I would not be in a position to even
entertain the thought of owning an airplane. Even the idea of
searching online to gain insight into the financial feasibility of
such an endeavor would have been ludicrous. But the information I've
gleamed recently has shown what options are available and what path to
take. For now, she comes first because it's all about compromise.
Thanks for your wisdom and for the advice, opinions and the sharing of
experience by all of those who have posted in response to my question.

Kirk Ellis wrote ...
Hmmmm.....without my wife I would not be in a position to
even entertain the thought of owning an airplane. Even the
idea of searching online to gain insight into the financial
feasibility of such an endeavor would have been ludicrous.
But the information I've gleamed recently has shown what
options are available and what path to take. For now, she
comes first because it's all about compromise. Thanks for
your wisdom and for the advice, opinions and the sharing of
experience by all of those who have posted in response to
my question.

OK Kirk, reality check time: The owner of Pilots Haven (Academy of Aviation
dot com) KFRG recently told me that not a single "middle class person" who
was a recreational pilot or pilot wannabe has walked thru his doors in the
last eight months. Yet he's busier than ever renting G1000 Skyhawks to upper
crusties and major airline pilot wannabes working thru to the comm ticket in
TAAs. No matter how much people rationalize that "in real dollars against
inflation it's no more expensive to fly blah blah blah", the truth is it has
gotten pretty tough for Joe Average!

So what'dya wanna do, take a timeout or fly?

If you have 150hr in 10 years, and you probably spent half that in the first
two years getting your ticket, you spend less than 10 hours a year flying.
If most of that was $100 burger flights, you are probably so out of practice
on the basics that it scares you to think "what if?". So here you are.

Now here forward are the options:
1. Run
2. Rent
3. Buy needs (as in meets), not want.

If you Run you'll never return, that's just the stats.
If you Rent you'll continue on the 10hr/yr road which leads to Run.
If you decide you're not a commie pinko thru the fence looking wannabe; then
here's your road to happy financially manageable ownership:
a. Get together with your partner (wife, not flying partner) and tell her
you really really really need to do this. If you can't get at least a
reluctant buyin, go back to option #1. If you get the green light, from that
moment on NEVER NEVER NEVER mention aviation costs in her presence again
EVER!
b. Now go have a beer with your real partner (flying partner) and agree that
a simple 2 seater like a Tomahawk or C150/2 would probably meet 90% of your
NEEDS, and a Cherokee 140 would be the limit (you can always rent if you
need more). If after 20 minutes the discussion has moved on to Bonanzas or
Mooneys, go back to option #1.
c. You've now reached a magic moment, here's where you agree with your
partner to visit an accountant to form a Del Corp, establish a Corp checking
acct with $20000 ($10K each), and spend the next 3 months renting a plane to
go kick some airplane tires.
d. You both agressively research everything AOPA has about partnership
agreements, perspective owner info, and the purchasing process on their
website.
e. Then go and ask every airplane owner you meet who his A&P is (write down
the name and number), then visit that guy and tell him you are looking for
an entry level plane for around 20 to 25K (he will add another 10k in his
head, so stay low. No one knows why this happens, but it works the same way
with weddings). Even if the A&P route comes up dry (which it almost never
does), you'll probably use one of these guys for your PreBuy inspection. If
the distance is too far for him, he'll probably know an A&P nearby where you
find your plane.
f. Look in ASO and Controller and Trade-a-Plane and AOPA and the half dozen
other free classified sites on the net.
g. Use the $20K as a starting number, remember that nobody pays ASKING
price, and plan on using a Bank Loan to finance about half the plane. The
bank will tend to slow the process a bit (a day or two), but they are your
friend in this process to make sure you get a clean title. AOPA is kind of a
one stop shop for both insur and loan, and since your numbers are low end
you don't really need to shop around.
h. Any more advice and you'll have to pay me.

Mike Spera's post was a bit pessimistic, but his numbers were dead on for a
single owner 180hp 4-seat plane. Re read my post in this thread that
mentions "ego driven mission creep" and stick with a 2-seater that from
Northern FL will easily make the trip to Key West (with a fuel stop of
course). Then plan on using some of the money I saved you (from the $50K)
and get some hours in the plane, it's back to basics time!!!

Good Luck.

On Mon, 19 May 2008 03:15:20 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
wrote:

.... reality check time: snip the truth is it has
gotten pretty tough for Joe Average!

So what'dya wanna do, take a timeout or fly?

Good Luck.


The attrition rate for recreational pilots will only grow. Wages this
year are falling behind inflation and will continue to do so. For
many, recreational flying is no longer an affordable luxury / hobby
that it was ten years ago. It's becoming a much more elite fraternity.

Being a part of that fraternity would definitely be a great adventure
but the amount of cash required to join that club is problematic for
Joe Average.

It's time for a timeout...for it's quite sobering to see how much cash
is required.

And thanks for your advice. Where do I send the fee?