Diesel in a homebuilt?

Ideally, both diesel and Jet-A1 could be used.
But with today's fuel prices, everyone makes his own compromise.

I'm going to show my ignorance again but Diesel and
Jet a1 can be used in a diesel engine?
Lou

Lou wrote:

I'm going to show my ignorance again but Diesel and
Jet a1 can be used in a diesel engine?

i would refer to the engine's manual to be safe; this can differ from engine
to engine. thielert's centurion 2.0 is certified for both, jet-a1 and
diesel. however, airplane manufacturers may restrict that; diamond's da-40
tdi is certified for jet-a1 only (according to the manual of an aircraft
equipped with the centurion 1.7).
the centurion 4.0 engine is designed for jet fuel only.

another aspect i'm not familiar with is if fuels sold as "diesel" are the
same in europe and the usa. thielert's internet site mentiones diesel fuel
according to european standard EN 590.


uli

On May 19, 10:08*pm, "Morgans" wrote:
"Peter Dohm" wrote

Your location is not obvious from your email. *In most of the world,
diesels are available in a wide variety. *In the US, where fuel
consumption is only estimated from total mass flow and emission content at
the exhasut, the choices are currently quite limited, and I am really not
very happy with any of the choices. *The 2 liter VW (Passat) is an all
iron engine, and about all I know is that it is about 100 pounds heavier
than its gasoline stablemate--which is partially aluminum. *There are also
V6 diesels offered in the Mercedes E320 and the Jeep Liberty, but I know
even less about them. There are probably others that I haven't seen, and
Isuzu has said that they will be back in the diesel market when the
regulations have stabilized.

Personally, I really do like the diesel idea--so I plan to take a very
close look if/when any of the lighter small diesels (such as the 2 liter
Mercedes) become available here.

*One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels run
on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their airplanes is
going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel has,
and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

I read somewhere that Thielert spent half of what they spent on
modifications to the engine, in designing a fuel pump that would be durable
enough.

Something to keep in mind.
--
Jim in NC
--
Jim in NC

Jim is on target here. The latest scheme is for truckers to aquire JET
A through several tricky means and then blend mineral oil into it at
the rate of 1 quart for 100 gallons of fuel. That adds the lubricity
into it to prevent wear on their fuel systems, the Jet A is not dyed
red so the tax man can't find out and they are able to purchase 10,000
gallons of jet at about half the cost of diesel. Word on the street
is the oil of choice is Aeroshell 100, because of the ashless
dispersents that are blended into it, supposably that prevents weird
things happening to the fuel injection system. Lets see, @ 6 bucks a
quart for the oil that makes it cost 6 cents a gallon to reformulate
Jet A to diesel... Sounds sweet to me. G

stol schreef:
they are able to purchase 10,000 gallons of jet at about half the cost of diesel

????!!!! In what part of the world is Jet A1 cheaper than (uncoloured)
diesel ????

On May 20, 10:49 am, jan olieslagers
wrote:
stol schreef:

they are able to purchase 10,000 gallons of jet at about half the cost of diesel

????!!!! In what part of the world is Jet A1 cheaper than (uncoloured)
diesel ????

Wow, I'm learning a lot.
Lou

On May 20, 9:49*am, jan olieslagers
wrote:
stol schreef:

they are able to purchase 10,000 gallons of jet at about half the cost of diesel

????!!!! In what part of the world is Jet A1 cheaper than (uncoloured)
diesel ????

The USA ..............

On Tue, 20 May 2008 15:49:09 +0000, jan olieslagers
wrote:

stol schreef:
they are able to purchase 10,000 gallons of jet at about half the cost of diesel

????!!!! In what part of the world is Jet A1 cheaper than (uncoloured)
diesel ????

Stale dated jet A is often available at a discount.Apparently.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Morgans" wrote in message
news

One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels
run on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their
airplanes is going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel
has, and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

I read somewhere that Thielert spent half of what they spent on
modifications to the engine, in designing a fuel pump that would be
durable enough.

Something to keep in mind.
--
Jim in NC
--
As of a few months ago, lubricity was a very serious problem in Ultra Low
Sulpher Diesel fuel, because the quickly implemented refining process tended
to strip most of the lubricants from the fuel. I have no idea whether that
caused it to have better, or worse, lubricity than Jet-A, but there are a
couple of high pressure lubricants offered specifically to solve the
problem--plus some "home brew" fixes.

BTW, the solution mentioned elsewhere in this thread is new to me; but
diesel airport vehicles have run on Jet-A as long as I can recall and AFAIK
all of the military Hummers are specified as diesel.

Comments???

Peter

On May 20, 12:08 am, "Morgans" wrote:
"Peter Dohm" wrote

Your location is not obvious from your email. In most of the world,
diesels are available in a wide variety. In the US, where fuel
consumption is only estimated from total mass flow and emission content at
the exhasut, the choices are currently quite limited, and I am really not
very happy with any of the choices. The 2 liter VW (Passat) is an all
iron engine, and about all I know is that it is about 100 pounds heavier
than its gasoline stablemate--which is partially aluminum. There are also
V6 diesels offered in the Mercedes E320 and the Jeep Liberty, but I know
even less about them. There are probably others that I haven't seen, and
Isuzu has said that they will be back in the diesel market when the
regulations have stabilized.

Personally, I really do like the diesel idea--so I plan to take a very
close look if/when any of the lighter small diesels (such as the 2 liter
Mercedes) become available here.

One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels run
on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their airplanes is
going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel has,
and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

I read somewhere that Thielert spent half of what they spent on
modifications to the engine, in designing a fuel pump that would be durable
enough.

Something to keep in mind.
--
Jim in NC
--
Jim in NC

Not I,

And I dare say there are a few other fellows on this board who are
looking at SVO, Biodiesel, and Ethanol as practical alternatives.
Ethanols lower energy density means you have to carry more of it, but
since it is more resistant to detonation you can run substantially
higher compression ratios. I don't imagine it will be too long before
the bean patch is replanted with corn or rape seed and fuel is boot-
legged right on the tarmac.

In central and south america ethanol has been in aviation use for a
while. Biodiesel has better temperature tolerances than SVO, but it
still isn't serviceable without additional engineering due to gelling.
Given that is the case, there is basically no gain from using
biodiesel over SVO so personally, I think SVO is the way to go. It has
better energy density than ethanol, the flip side of course is that it
has a very high and variable gel temperature. But an engine designs
specifically for SVO _can_ design around this problems, and would
still accept biodiesel and pump-diesel easily. kerosene.... once in a
while. But not recommended.

Germany has a national fuel standard for SVO, and Elsbett has done
extensive work in solving injector coking problems associated with
SVO. So with SVO the engine is heavier, but offset by lower fuel
load, and a slightly shorter TBO, but given the price of 100LL, the
shorter TBO is offset by the fuel savings. Fuel availability would
actually be easier logistically speaking than the current system, once
it is adopted.

The only issue, is that the _only_ company to design an engine
specifically for SVO at this point is Elsbett. There are dozens of
kludges being sold for cars, but no ground-up designs. Funny that
people go to all the trouble of innovating a new engine, and don't
innovate where the fuel is concerned.

-Matt

On May 18, 9:46 pm, Lou wrote:
Not that I plan to do this but I was wondering, if one was going to
plan to install a diesel in a homebuilt, what diesel would one put
in?
Lou

Currently there is the delta-hawk in the USA. There is an english 2-
cylinder 2 stroke of ~100hp that is based on the Jumo engines. There
are a couple of German companies, one with a couple of certified gear
reduced diesels, and there is an experimental diesel based on the
Mercedes smart engine. Also there is the new Subaru diesel, and the
latest pump-dues engine from VW. Ford also has a tight little
european TDI in the 1.5L range, but I don't know what the figures on
it are. I believe Lycoming makes a TDI for military applications,
(UAV's) )but I've not seen it offered commercially. In a nutshell, if
you aren't going delta-hawk, you will be looking overseas since
domestic diesel tech is about a decade behind the curve.

Of all of them the Jumo style engine in the UK peaks my interest, but
it's probably cost prohibitive. It has a lower parts count, and is
based on technology that has worked in aviation since the 30's. The
flip side is their aren't very many documented installations.

The automotive TDI's have direct injection systems that are computer
controlled. Essentially they reduce cylinder pressure by injecting
several pulses per stroke to simulate a gasoline combustion cycle.
This makes for a lighter engine, but you are dependent on common rail
injection, computer controls and greater sensitivity to fuel
contamination. ( I am speculating on the fuel contamination based on
injector design) Switching to mechanical injection on these engines
substantially derates them.

I am futzing around with a design based loosely on the old Packard
diesel with some modern features from other engines. At the moment is
is just a few CAD sketches, and I doubt if it will ever become a
reality. But I am convinced the Packard design coupled with turbo-
normalizing and modern casting/machining technology would provide the
lowest parts count, with the highest reliability.