Outside reference in IMC

Bob F. wrote:

For example: It's an attitude indicator, not and artificial horizon.
It's a heading indicator, not a directional gyro.

When and why did the nomenclature on those get changed. I learned to fly
in the late 70's and flew during the early 80's a bunch then laid off
for quite a while and got my helo rating in the mid 90's.

It seemed to have happened sometime before '95 but the helo instructor I
had didn't seem to mind when I called the heading indicator a
directional gyro and there wasn't an attitude indicator in the R22 so it
never came up.

I'll be honest it wasn't until I started building in 2002 that I
realized that everyone was calling them the new names and decided that I
would too.

Bob, I agree that what you wrote is what is commonly understood, but
in fact the definition of IMC in the US is related to where weather
conditions prohibit VFR flying. You are in fact in IMC if you are just
below (or above) a cloud deck and the visibility is 20 miles or more.
In controlled airspace if visibility is less than 3 miles you're in
IMC even though you are probably flying by outside reference as much
as you are by reference to instruments.














On May 20, 3:43 pm, "Bob F." wrote:
The acronyms speak for themselves:

One refers to rules, the other to conditions:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which flight
instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. How used: "Flight
into IMC". One would not say "an IMC rating". If you can use outside
references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as in "flying in and out
of IMC".

IFR - Instrument Flight Rules - Refers to rules which you follow when
conducting and instrument flight...IMC or not. How used: "I filed IFR
today". One would not say "I have an IFR certificate" or

Notice IMC and IFR are phrases. Your certificate does not say either of
these. You do not have IFR rating, you have an Instrument rating.

--
Regards, BobF."Paul kgyy" wrote in message

...

On May 20, 11:25 am, wrote:
I fly in the southeastern US, nearly always under IFR, in a complex
sel. In reading other threads it's pretty clear that some others who
post here don't understand what IMC means. I mostly hand fly, and I'm
guessing 30% or more of my IMC flying is using the outside horizon,
with occasional glances at the VOR needle, altimeter, and DG to assure
myself I'm on course and at the correct altitude. Is that what most of
you GA types experience as well?

Well, IMC does refer to , well, IMC, which by definition is restricted
visibility. Sometimes there is a horizon, but a good part of the
time, there isn't. Flying offshore in the summer over the Great
Lakes, even VFR conditions do not always present a useable horizon.
If in doubt, I use the gauges and if it's a long trip and not too
turbulent, I let the autopilot do some of the work while I do the
planning ahead.

On May 20, 4:28 pm, Tina wrote:
Bob, I agree that what you wrote is what is commonly understood, but
in fact the definition of IMC in the US is related to where weather
conditions prohibit VFR flying. You are in fact in IMC if you are just
below (or above) a cloud deck and the visibility is 20 miles or more.
In controlled airspace if visibility is less than 3 miles you're in
IMC even though you are probably flying by outside reference as much
as you are by reference to instruments.


Lack of VFR does not imply you are in IMC. Lack of VFR only implies
that you need to be on an IFR flight plan.

One could be flying 100' below a cloud deck in visual conditions. This
is not IMC because you do not need to rely on your instruments. But it
is not meet the requirements for VFR either so you need an IFR flight
plan.

There are four terms here which all means different things: VFR, IFR,
VMC, IMC.

One could legally be operating in VMC under IFR or IMC under VFR.

One could legally be operating in VMC under IFR or IMC under VFR.

I think you are only half right. You can surely operate IFR in VMC --
and there are places where that's actually required, but if you are in
IMC, which is defined as in conditions below VFR minima, you had best
be flying IFR.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:


Lack of VFR does not imply you are in IMC. Lack of VFR only implies
that you need to be on an IFR flight plan.


From the AIM: "Instrument Meteorological Conditions--Meteorological
conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and
ceiling less than the minima specified for visual meteorological
conditions." So if you are not in VMC you are in IMC and fly under IFR.

Bob F. wrote:

The acronyms speak for themselves:

One refers to rules, the other to conditions:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which
flight instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. How
used: "Flight into IMC". One would not say "an IMC rating". If you
can use outside references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as
in "flying in and out of IMC".
/snip/

Bob,
Where did you get that definition? The Pilot Controller Glossary states:

"Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Meteorological conditions
expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud,and ceiling less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions."

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

On May 20, 3:44*pm, Scott Skylane wrote:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which
flight instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. *How
used: *"Flight into IMC". *One would not say "an IMC rating". *If you
can use outside references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as
in "flying in and out of IMC".

/snip/

Bob,
Where did you get that definition? *The Pilot Controller Glossary states:

"Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Meteorological conditions
expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud,and ceiling less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions."

Scott,

You are correct THE WAY I UNDERSTAND the above.

For purposes of logging IMC, I only log it when I am inside a cloud in
my log book, but anything less then VMC conditions is considered
IMC.

So in reality, I have spent many more hours in IMC by legal
definitions then what is in my log book. But I am not seeking anymore
ratings so I don't mind.

And in order to fly VMC, you must be VFR, which means keeping the
appropriate cloud clearances based VFR flight rules.

So, if you are 20 feet above a cloud deck seeing 200 miles ahead under
a glorious sunshine, it is considered IMC because you are not
maintaining VFR clearances from the clouds. And when one thinks about
it, one is flying by instruments since you have no ground references
anyway.

To be in and out of IMC conditions, I see that happening on a
scattered cloud day at the altitude you are flying.

You cannot maintain in and out of IMC on a cloud deck that is
considered broken (I.E horizontal cloud clearances wouldn't be met).at
that cloud altitude like on a day of scattered cumulus.

As far as the official rating, I believe it's IA (Instrument Air) that
allows you to fly IFR which of course allows you to fly IMC.

wrote:


As far as the official rating, I believe it's IA (Instrument Air)


Instrument Airplane

wrote:


So in reality, I have spent many more hours in IMC by legal
definitions then what is in my log book. But I am not seeking anymore
ratings so I don't mind.

You can only log the time if you are in IMC (not legally VFR) AND you
have to fly solely by instruments. Let's say you are 50 feet below a
cloud deck with 50 miles of forward visibility and nothing obscuring the
ground or horizon. This is legally IMC and IFR applies, but you don't
log it as such because you can fly it without having to fly solely by
reference to instruments.

Good question. Terms can have multiple definitions. I don't think I said
"definition or defined" (maybe I implied that) but in any case terms can
have multiple definitions. I fall back to my math and engineering
background. I see no contradiction in the "definitions" The Pilot Glossary
has a specific definition and the way I described it is the fundamental
understanding of the words. Like in math, sometimes you remember the rules
and other times you define it from scratch. That's what I did.

Vocabulary is invented so that people can communicate. If you don't have an
understanding between people then you need to change your vocabulary, use it
correctly or invent a new term. IMC, broken down, is precise to me, that
is, "MC" where "I",s are needed. The glossary is less clear to me but
nevertheless conveys the same thought. The glossary's last phrase "less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions" says it.
If conditions are worse than VFR, your probably on instruments (or should
be). Like OJ, I go for the throat and state it explicitly.

It would be contradictory to me to say "I was in IMC but didn't need to use
instruments". Then why the "I"?... Kind of like saying "IBM machine".
Listen to what you are saying helps.

JMHO.

--
Regards, BobF.
"Scott Skylane" wrote in message
mmunications...
Bob F. wrote:

The acronyms speak for themselves:

One refers to rules, the other to conditions:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Condition under which flight
instruments are used to maintain control of an aircraft. How used:
"Flight into IMC". One would not say "an IMC rating". If you can use
outside references to maintain flight you are not in IMC... as in "flying
in and out of IMC".
/snip/

Bob,
Where did you get that definition? The Pilot Controller Glossary states:

"Instrument Meteorological Conditions - Meteorological conditions
expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud,and ceiling less
than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions."

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane