Mapping Glider Locations

COLIN LAMB wrote:



Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959)



OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!

Scott
N0EDV

"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.

Colin Lamb

COLIN LAMB wrote:
"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.

Exactly. That is why I wondered if you had objections to the
possibility of having your call used by Joe Public so to speak.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.

OK, but to me PERSONALLY, I take "gray areas" as "indeterminate and
intermediate in character" (Webster's Universal College Dictionary)
meaning that while something may not be specifically illegal, it may not
necessarily be specifically legal either. This is the area where
lawyers dwell (as noted in an old Don Henley song). It sounds to me
that gray areas tend to be used by people that are after something that
is good for them rather than good for the public in general.

I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days.

Scott
N0EDV

Colin Lamb

COLIN LAMB wrote:

As a member ham and member of the local Search and Rescue organization, we
have been interested in tracking fellow searchers. The technology has been
available for some time, but was not straightforward.

That may be changing, and the change may be very useful for soaring pilots
who wish to follow pilot tracks and locations and also for following the
nearness of other glider pilots.

APRS (automatic position reporting system) was developed by a ham and is now
used by police and other groups for tracking. The problem has been taking
the data and doing something useful with it. For a number of years, you
could transmit a position report and have it show up as a position and track
on the internet. That alone is useful to glider pilots, but it requires
access by the receiving station to the internet. To implement this setup,
all that is necessary is an old 2 meter handy talkie (about $50 or less
used), a TNC (less than $50 new) and a GPS. The GPS can be any retired unit
with simply a serial data output. So, for $150, you can place your location
on the internet. Note that you do not need to be a ham to use this in your
glider. It needs to be "operated" by a ham, which means the ham would
install it and set up the software. The software controls the transmitter,
so if the ham sets up the software, he is controlling the transmitter, even
if not present.

So far, this is fairly useful, although it does not allow the pilot to see
other pilots with APRS installations. Now, however, there is a big
improvement. See http://www.argentdata.com/products/tracker2.html . I am
about to order the Open Tracker OT2m to try out. I think what the
advertisement says is that with a 2 meter radio (the same $50 used one), the
OT2m (under $100) and a mapping GPS that allows uploading waypoints, you
could receive location reports from nearby soaring pilots and have them
appear on your GPS - with an identifier.

If you are not a ham or know a ham, you can now obtain a license without
knowing the morse code. That requirement has been eliminated. The exam, in
the simplest form, involves memorizing a pool of multiple choice questions
and receiving passing grades. A book with the most current question pool is
available.

I have not tried out the OT2m but am planning on ordering one and thought I
would post this to let others think about it.

Colin Lamb



Furthering on my previous reply, I quote FCC rules (Part 97) and
hightlighted text with capitalization for emphasis:

§97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:

(1) Within 50 km of the Earth's surface and at a place where the
amateur service is regulated by the FCC;

(2) Within 50 km of the Earth's surface and aboard any vessel or
craft that is documented or registered in the United States; or

(3) More than 50 km above the Earth's surface aboard any craft
that is documented or registered in the United States.



§97.7 Control operation required.
When transmitting, each amateur station must have a control operator.
THE CONTROL OPERATOR MUST BE a PERSON:

(a) For whom an amateur operator/primary station license grant appears
on the ULS consolidated licensee database, or

(b) Who is authorized for alien reciprocal operation by §97.107 of this
part.


And...I forgot to put my amateur radio callsign in my last post.

Scott
N0EDV

"§97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:"

Response: N1547C set up a track just as I mentioned and the control
operator was not on the aircraft. The FCC knew about it (many years ago)
and thee were no problems. You do not need to be physically present at a
transmitter site to have physical control over the amateur station. For
example, I can place my station remotely and use a link to operate it. In
that case, I have physical control over it and am in compliance with part
97. Similarly, I can have a telephone nearby and a person present and make
a telephone call to tell the person to turn the transmitter off. I am the
control operator and the transmitter is under the physical control of me.

If I turn the APRS transmitter on before flight, then turn it off after the
flight, there is no question that I am in control, as long as I have a radio
link with the non-ham pilot to be able to tell him to turn off the APRS
transmitter, or I can turn it off after the flight. It need not be
immediate. This assumes the non ham is not able to change frequency or use
a mike or other things - which would not happen in an APRS installation. A
sanitary installation would have everything in a sealed box, with just an
on-off switch.

A "gray" area would occur if the non-ham operator could arbitrarily turn the
APRS unit on, but there are "work arounds". If the transmitter is connected
to the ignition switch of the aircraft, so that being turned on is
incidental to the operation of the aircraft, then it could be argued that
the non-ham does not have control. And, it would ber better if the on-off
switch was not resetable, which means it could be turned off, but not turned
on.

It also could go into a sleep mode, unless the aircraft was moving and never
be turned on by the non-ham. When the pilot returned to where th eham was,
it could be shut off.

Hams have been operating in "gray" areas for years and it is not a big
issue. I operate a ham repeater and have for decades. For some period of
time, they operated in a gray area. Similarly, hams have been connecting to
the internet for years, even though that is also a gray area.

Colin Lamb

COLIN LAMB wrote:
"§97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:"


Is it a good idea to rely on continued operation in a "gray area" when
dealing with either the FCC or the FAA? Unfortunately, both systems are
set up to encourage exactly that, with varying Reg. interpretations and
enforcement priorities from one region to another.


How about this?

§97.109 Station control.

(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.
(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control
operator must be at the control point.



Jack