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#31
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"George Z. Bush" wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote: "George Z. Bush" wrote: Well, aren't you the latter day Nostradamus! My crystal ball is cloudy and my cleaning cloth hasn't come back from the cleaners yet, so I think I'll pass on the predicting-the-future business other than to comment in passing that your guess is as good as mine, or vice versa. Don't really need a crystal ball do you George? You having a problem with my English? You don't understand what "I think I'll pass..." means? Working hard at being confrontational it seems. Don't see anything wrong with my reading of what you wrote. Do you understand what you wrote? We know what happens when one doesn't stand up to tyranny. We know what happens when failure in will (usually always for very good reasons), allows darkness to prevail. I think even you'll agree Saddam and Osama are on the side of darkness. Removal from Lebanon and Somalia only encouraged the OBL crowd. Don't think for a minute they can not win in Iraq. The odds are in their favor. Spoken like a true simplistic idealogue. Everything's black and white.....everything's so easy to figure out. Sure it is.....and that's why they having parades for their conquering heroes in Baghdad every day. Sure it is! We can add complexity to the point we no longer can tell anything. Your choice. You think there are shades of complexity coming from the Taliban? From the Baathists? From the generic Arab world? You'd better figure out what is black and white and toss the gray or you'll be living by someone else's definition of it. Don't get me wrong. I'm neo-isolationist at heart. I don't think the US should ever have been in Lebanon or Somalia, despite honest reasons. I don't think the US should be in Kosovo or Bosnia, despite images of massacred farmers or urbanites of the wrong ethnic persuasion. But we were there! And once there, to be run out can only be bad. Now, like it or not, we're in Iraq, for actually quite fair reasons IMHO. You were on a roll until you stated our reasons for being there were quite fair. But, you're entitled to your opinion. Well your open-mindedness spilleth over. So what's it going to be? I don't think you need to be a modern day Nostradamus to see any trends here do you? Surely you wouldn't believe what I might have to say, so why don't you enlighten us with your perceived wisdom? You've already stated your poor opinion of my wisdom. Saying anything more is a waste of typing muscles. SMH |
#32
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"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ...
Stephen Harding wrote: "George Z. Bush" wrote: Stephen Harding wrote: Surely you won't deny that being bogged down in Iraq is good for Democratic Presidential hopes next year especially if the economy keeps moving towards improvement (another "dang!" from the Dems although not explicitly stated). Certainly I'll categorically deny that being bogged down in Iraq is good for any American, candidate or not. Many Americans, lately including members of the Then I don't think you're being politically realistic. While I don't believe our Senators and Representatives *want* more US casualties to help attain their political goals, the parties most certainly do make plans based on how certain issues/problems play out. Dems will be favored if Iraq is seen as a "quagmire", just as they'll be helped if the economy stays stale. Republican Party as well as Democrats, are starting to regret that our nation allowed itself to get involved in this military adventure for non-existent reasons in the first place. In hindsight, we may someday conclude that we would have been better off letting the UN handle the mess their way, instead of going it alone. In hindsight, when car bombs are exploding along NYC or DC streets on a fairly regular basis, we'll see the Iraqi effort was cheap compared to having it all happen at home. We'll see very clearly the lesson of dropping the ball in Iraq because it "wasn't worth it" was extremely short sighted. The terrorists will learn that OBL was right! Americans are paper tigers without the will to see difficult objectives through to their completion. Car bombs worked in Lebanon. They worked in Mogadishu. They worked in Iraq. They'll work anywhere against US interests, and they'll even work in NYC and LA. This all won't come to pass the day after we depart Iraq in defeat, but I believe it will come. Well, aren't you the latter day Nostradamus! My crystal ball is cloudy and my cleaning cloth hasn't come back from the cleaners yet, so I think I'll pass on the predicting-the-future business other than to comment in passing that your guess is as good as mine, or vice versa. And your guess would presumably therefore be that if we ticked tail and skedaddled out of Iraq pronto things would be just peachy? Otherwise, what are you arguing with here? Brooks George Z. SMH |
#33
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Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:16:20 -0500, "George Z. Bush" wrote: Certainly I'll categorically deny that being bogged down in Iraq is good for any American, candidate or not. Many Americans, lately including members of the Republican Party as well as Democrats, are starting to regret that our nation allowed itself to get involved in this military adventure for non-existent reasons in the first place. In hindsight, we may someday conclude that we would have been better off letting the UN handle the mess their way, instead of going it alone. George Z. Had a student in my American Gov't class last week, an Iraqi Freedom vet, Marine. He indicated the intent not to vote for Bush' reelection, although when pressed, he couldn't find any identification with the opposition other than his disappointment in the "quagmire" of Iraq. I asked him if he knew where the metaphor originated, and, being a modern American product of our educational system, he did not. I explained that David Halberstam had written "Making of a Quagmire" more than five YEARS after the start of full-blown US/NVN hostilities. I pointed out that Iraqi Freedom lasted five WEEKS, and the rebuilding phase has been going on for less than five MONTHS. Hardly "bogged down" at this point, although the potential exists. Recent editorials have been comparing the Iraqi democratization to the aftermath of WW II in Europe. Five months after V-E day, the region was lawless, with looting, refugees, sniping and disorder. It was eighteen months until George Marshall's genius of rebuilding rather than punishing ala Versailles began to create the stable, economically powerful Germany and post-war Europe. Good analogy. We live in a "USA Today/MTV" sort of world in which resolution must occur within seconds or we jump cut to the next suggestive video segment. Exactly, and well put. "Non-existant reasons"? Gotta say at the most superficial that bringing democracy to an oppressed dictatorial nation is a pretty good one. Ditto for demonstrating US support for an Arab people. Ditto again for stabilizing the region and building a staunch presence beyond Israel. "Letting the UN handle the mess their way..."? Gimme a break. Any examples of UN successes in handling this sort of mess? Somalia? Nope... Brooks |
#34
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:23:17 -0500, "George Z. Bush" wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:16:20 -0500, "George Z. Bush" wrote: Certainly I'll categorically deny that being bogged down in Iraq is good for any American, candidate or not. Many Americans, lately including members of the Republican Party as well as Democrats, are starting to regret that our nation allowed itself to get involved in this military adventure for non-existent reasons in the first place. In hindsight, we may someday conclude that we would have been better off letting the UN handle the mess their way, instead of going it alone. George Z. (Snip) Recent editorials have been comparing the Iraqi democratization to the aftermath of WW II in Europe. Five months after V-E day, the region was lawless, with looting, refugees, sniping and disorder. I was in Italy until June 1946 and, other than the presence of some refugees, there was little looting, sniping or disorder visible to the naked eye. Maybe the birthplace of the Mafia was more law abiding than was defeated Germany, but I didn't see the things you inferred were endemic. And I do not remember any reports of ongoing resistance to the end of the war in Germany as is apparently in progress in Iraq today. There may have been isolated instances of rifle fire but nothing more. There's a whole big mountain range between Italy and central Europe. Yes, they're called the Alps, and they do indeed separate Italy from the rest of Europe, but no more so than the same mountains separated Austria from the rest of Europe. Anyway, we were talking about Europe, and not a specific part of it. The war rolled through Italy a year and a half before Germany collapsed..... My unit was staging for an airborne invasion of the Po Valley in the Spring of '45, which was about the time that Germany collapsed. I wonder why nobody told us that the war was over so that we might have been able to save the lives of the guys in our unit who were killed in an accident by a battle damaged B-17 that crash landed at our staging base and ran into a couple of our airplanes. ......and the level of destruction as Berlin was caught between the two oncoming armies from East and West was considerably different than Italy. I guess you've never seen what the Anzio beachhead or the abbey at Montecassino looked like, but I can tell you that Italian rubble looks just like German or any other kind of rubble. You're probably right about the fact that the Battle of Berlin produced a monumental amount of municipal rubble, while the rubble in Italy was more rural in character and took a lot more time to produce than the battle for Berlin did. (Snip) "Non-existant reasons"? Gotta say at the most superficial that bringing democracy to an oppressed dictatorial nation is a pretty good one. If that's a reason to go to war, then we must have a veritable grab bag of eligible sites for the next adventure. The world is full of oppressed dictatorial nations, as is that region, and we are even allied with a good number of them. Certainly there are a number of nations that might benefit from "regime change" but foreign policy is inextricably linked to national self-interest. While we might not much care what goes on in Liberia or Myanmar, the stability of the middle-East is clearly within the interest of America. We pick and choose where we get involved. Sometimes it is easily and clearly supportable, but more often it will be dissected in the political process of America's two-party system and lots of folks will disagree, many for simplistic and even incorrect reasons. .....Ditto for demonstrating US support for an Arab people. Ditto again for stabilizing the region and building a staunch presence beyond Israel. That's another way of saying that "this is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me" isn't it? All we have to do is to beat them into stability, even if it doesn't suit them. That's an excellent rhetorical gambit, but what the hell does it mean? It doesn't at all mean what you've implied. Does improving the governmental process of an authoritarian nation imply some sort of punishment? Hardly. For that matter, the birth of the USA was revolutionary and arguably quite painful. And, it only took us eleven years after the revolution before we beat out the Constitution that has worked for the last 216 years. "Letting the UN handle the mess their way..."? Gimme a break. Any examples of UN successes in handling this sort of mess? I confess that I would sooner have them firing their RPGs and detonating their land mines when UN forces go by than when the targets are solely American. So, if the policy fails, it's a UN policy that fails, and if there are casualties, they are UN casualties. Let's face it, we're not in this out of the goodness of our national hearts.....we're in it because, whether or not it's yet clear to us ordinary Americans, we're going to profit in some way for our involvement. Some of us suspect that it won't involve much more than oil or big business in some way. In any case, anybody who swallows the proposition that we are altruistic in our foreign affairs has got to be the world's most gullible guppy. That's great reasoning. You first urge us to abandon the region (or roll back the clock and never have gone in the first place) so that the "UN handle the mess their way" clearly implying that a UN solution would be somehow effective, then when pressed seem to admit that the UN would bugger it up completely, but at least we wouldn't have responsibility. It's somewhat better than your reasoning in that you assumed something (and you know what happens when you assume) that I never ever said. I think that for us to pull out of Iraq would be a disaster for our national interests and a total waste of the human, materiel and fiscal assets we've expended on it so far. In point of fact, I was merely using my super-perfect 20-20 hindsight in envisioning how the problem might have developed had we chosen to pursue some role other than that of Rambo. Gotta say that while you seem to be ideologically committed, you seem to be rationality impaired. Your logic doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny. It's all in the eye of the beholder. I don't think too much of the logic of you knee-jerk idealogues, either. However, I must say in closing how much I admire your arrogance in sitting in judgment of my ability to rationalize and exercise logic. Are you sure you don't have a strain of Israeli chutzpah hidden in your familial background somewhere? (^-^))) You don't have to answer that, it being just a rhetorical question. Does answering one's own question stand up to your logical scrutiny? Oh, well. George Z. |
#35
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
blurted out: ...foreign policy is inextricably linked to national self-interest. Absolutely...and often for a small segment of a nation's electorate (or economy), e.g. current US steel tariffs and resulting WTO sanctions. We pick and choose where we get involved. Yep. Sometimes it is easily and clearly supportable, but more often it will be dissected in the political process of America's two-party system and lots of folks will disagree, many for simplistic and even incorrect reasons. And the corollary, "lots of folks will agree, many for simplistic and even incorrect reasons." C'est vrai? [responding to GZB's remarks about UN vice US troops being the predominant force of occupation in Iraq] That's great reasoning. You first urge us to abandon the region (or roll back the clock and never have gone in the first place) so that the "UN handle the mess their way" clearly implying that a UN solution would be somehow effective, then when pressed seem to admit that the UN would bugger it up completely, but at least we wouldn't have responsibility. Respectfully, I inferred that however messy the process is, it would be more palatable if the UN community had been the driving force (with shared risks). It's only natural to prefer that your boys and girls are not the ones getting killed. GZB's comments sound perfectly logical. Gotta say that while you seem to be ideologically committed, you seem to be rationality impaired. Your logic doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny. Sure it does. The "facts" enumerated by our president as the reason to invade Iraq (without the aid of major allies in the UN) now appear to be more ambiguous, with the notable exception that Saddam Hussein is a ruthless **** that needs to die. It would *appear* that the CIA's current estimate of the situation in Iraq is incongruous with Rumsfeld's, Cheney's, or GWB's more positive assessment. I too wish the UN had a greater role in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. **** happens...now I hope we can turn Iraq over to the owners ASAP. Juvat |
#36
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Subject: BUSH HIDES THE BODY BAGS...
From: "George Z. Bush" am Date: 11/12/03 12:45 PM Pacific Standard Time My unit was staging for an airborne invasion of the Po Valley in the Spring of '45, which was about the time that Germany collapsed. I wonder why nobody told We, the 344th attacked the Po Valley in 1945 hitting a Panzer division below. It's a good thing you guys didn't drop in. If the Panzers didn't get you, we would have. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#37
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"George Z. Bush" wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote: [...] Recent editorials have been comparing the Iraqi democratization to the aftermath of WW II in Europe. Five months after V-E day, the region was lawless, with looting, refugees, sniping and disorder. I was in Italy until June 1946 and, other than the presence of some refugees, there was little looting, sniping or disorder visible to the naked eye. Maybe the birthplace of the Mafia was more law abiding than was defeated Germany, but I didn't see the things you inferred were endemic. And I do not remember any reports of ongoing resistance to the end of the war in Germany as is apparently in progress in Iraq today. There may have been isolated instances of rifle fire, but nothing more. [...] + No incentive to attack US forces as heavy-handed response resulted + Occasionally, some young nimrod would take a shot at occupying troops. Noteworthy by its infrequency. + Possession of a firearm a serious advance which would land you in a KZ + Levels of lawlessness, banditry, etc, all depended on region. + Northern Italy/Yugoslav border, southern Austria, bandits, either Italian or Balkan, or 'Balkan Blend'. Necessary to be armed when travelling through some of NE Italy. + Most lawlessness directed at obtaining goods. For instance, an entire train was held up by the Mafia north of Naples somewhere. + Berlin there were even gangs of deserters from the Allied armies doing hold-ups of convoys, trains and shooting it out with MPs + Lots of murders among black marketeers. The voiceover at the beginning of the "The Third Man" shows one of the 'amateurs' floating in the Danube. + Austria, some un-surrendered troops surviving in the mountains. + Porous 'borders' with Austria/Czechia/Hungaria meant Soviet and freelance kidnap gangs roamed at will, as did assassination teams. + Nazi smugglers, Zionist terrorist gangs, Jew smugglers all operated down through the Alps to Italian ports. + French occupation troops in the French zone of Austria specialised in rape + No incentive to get the Allies out since if the Allies left the Soviets would take over. Plus none of the candy-ass pussyfooting-around over "cultural sensitivity". Anyone in custody was given a "culturally appropriate" meal consisting of ..... a lot more calories than most people were getting on the outside and had the baton applied to them in a "culturally appropriate" manner should their behaviour merit such. +If none of this was found to be to taste, you could always cross to the Soviet zone. + Some areas there was no 'border' imposed, as such, you just crossed. However, on attempting to return, one found there was indeed a 'border'. The big advantage enjoyed by post-war Allied occupiers was that Uncle Joe was right next door. This focused everyone's attention on what was waiting for them if the Allies decided to go home. |
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