Leading Turns With Rudder

On Jul 21, 9:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

I am a CFIG at a club that uses G103 for primary instruction. The
amount of rudder application required in a turn is not cut and dry.
There are many variables...speed, amount of aileron applied and how
fast it is applied. It is also not a step 1, step 2 affair. It all
comes down to a "balance of forces" which equals an "aircraft flown in
trim". The fallback that I encourage students to use is simultaneous
application of rudder with the stick input. It just so happens that
in the G103, half rudder with half stick application and full rudder
with full aileron stick input works very well at thermalling speeds
and the yaw string will hardly move. Of course, the rudder must be
returned to nearly neutral when the stick is returned to neutral.
Students frequently forget that part.

Randy

On Jul 21, 9:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

Well lots have jumped in with feet first but I was taught, and used to
teach, stick and rudder together.

I have to agree though with those that say do what ever it takes to
make the glider do what you want it to. For student pilots that's
usually to keep the yaw string centered entering, exiting, and while
established in, a turn.

I have flown lots of glider types but most of my experience is in
single place Schleichers. I never lead with rudder to roll my 28, nor
did I with my 19. (except when flying rudder only when the hands were
busy with something else)

I received my initial glider training in UK but first soloed in US.

Andy (not a brand name)

I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).

I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.

I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.

-Paul

"sisu1a" wrote in message
...
I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).

I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.

I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.

-Paul

I'm uncomfortable with teaching "lead with rudder" to primary students. In
fact, aerodynamically, there is no need for rudder until adverse yaw
manifests itself so both rudder and aileron should be applied
simultaneously.

Where this idea comes from, I think, is that it often FEELS like rudder
input needs to come first. This is because most people move their feet
slower than their hands. If your brain tells your hands and feet to move at
the same time, the hands will move first. If you consiously try to move
your feet a fraction of a second before your hands, it's likely they will
move at nearly the same time.

The problem with "institutionalizing" the rudder-first idea is that as
pilots gain experience, their hands and feet will start moving in
synchronization leading to real rudder first action and inadvertant skidding
turn entries.

I tell students to move the rudder and ailerons at the same time but to
expect that, at first, their sluggish feet reactions will make it feel as if
they need to use the rudder first. Later, when they have more experience,
it will feel like they are moving them at the same time.

So much for inadvertant skiding turn entries. It is actually an advantage
to deliberately skid turn entries with some gliders. If the glider has a
lot of dihedral, there will be a strong yaw-to-roll coupling effect which
adds to the roll effect from the ailerons. Slightly skidding the turn
entries with my Nimbus 2C will cut a second off the 45 degree right bank to
45 degree left bank turn reversal which is significant in a 20m glider.

BTW, the effect of the Holinghaus/Johnson slipping turn is not to achieve
"fuselage lift" but to use the dihedral yaw to roll coupling to hold off
overbanking while keeping the ailerons centered. Centered ailerons keeps
the wing profile intact tip to tip resulting in a greater rate of climb. It
also has the added safety benefit that if the glider stalls it is likely to
drop the high wing giving the pilot an additional second or so to recover
wings level.

Bill D

At 02:56 22 July 2008, Bill Daniels wrote: (Snip)

I'm uncomfortable with teaching "lead with rudder" to primary
students.
In
fact, aerodynamically, there is no need for rudder until adverse yaw
manifests itself so both rudder and aileron should be applied
simultaneously.


Bill D


So am I and I personally have never done that. I have pointed out to post
solo pilots that the technique of leading with the rudder on some gliders
(Grob103 in particular) will clean up the entry to a turn where it is
intended to use large aileron input, it seems prevent the adverse yaw
starting. It is not necessary for "normal" turn entry. I have never
found it necessary on a ASW glider of any type.

At 09:41 22 July 2008, Don Johnstone wrote:
I have never
found it necessary on a ASW glider of any type.


It may not be necessary Don, but it is effective. How many competitions
have you won in your ASWs (of any type)?

At 09:41 22 July 2008, Don Johnstone wrote:
I have never
found it necessary on a ASW glider of any type.


It may not be necessary Don, but it is effective. How many competitions
have you won in your ASWs (of any type)?

On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote:
I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).

I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.

I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.

-Paul

Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one
teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be
absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered?

On Jul 22, 4:44 am, wrote:
On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote:



I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).

I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.

I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.

-Paul

Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one
teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be
absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered?


Well, it makes instruction with him about as much fun as it sounds
(assuming your not a hapless student that doesn't know better and
would never stand up to his authority which BTW is very authoritative,
complete w/yelling tendencies but I digress...). It should be noted
that he is using a 2-33 (our other trainer is an L-13 Blanik, which he
is convinced it is awful for instruction compared to the wonderful
2-33...) to push this technique, which is not exactly snappy in ANY
responses so I doubt the string is getting too far in most of the
time. 95% of the instruction he does is with newbies who won't talk
back, so your point is probably never brought up (the rest of the
folks just grit their teeth, bite their tongue and finish their BFR
ASAP).
Recapping, my real concern of this does not come from how the 2-33
specifically likes/dislikes it. My concern comes from building this
technique by rote as a reflex in students because it translates poorly
to most other gliders, and seems like it could potentially lead to
disaster down the road, from my limited perspective. Honest, this
stuff actually gets written on a board and drilled into students
heads, I'm not making this up.

-Paul
(trying to keep descriptions as generic as possible because I DON'T
want to call him out)

On Jul 22, 11:57 am, sisu1a wrote:

Well, it makes instruction with him about as much fun as it sounds

[...]

My concern comes from building this
technique by rote as a reflex in students because it translates poorly
to most other gliders, and seems like it could potentially lead to
disaster down the road, from my limited perspective. Honest, this
stuff actually gets written on a board and drilled into students
heads, I'm not making this up.

Got a real peach there :-).

Obviously, I think your concern is valid. Primacy is real.