Boy Who Flew With Condors - Dick Johnson? Other Comments

R Buck, thanks for the post. It also brought back many good old memories. That movie was one of the major influencers when I was a 14 year old kid learning in the 2-22. I felt I was in heaven the day I solo'd in the 1-26! 40 years later I ended up acquiring that self same 1-26 serial number 225 and am reworking all the badges.

As to low thermalling, I've made saves routinely from 200 ft. Its not the dangerous big deal that many make it out to be, and in the "old days" of flying low performance ships, its something of an essential skill needed if you intend to get anywhere xc. The issue is not "turns at low levels", its improper turns. I turn 8 to 14 hours a day, all day long at below 200 ft with an insainly high wing loading (2000 lbs of fertilizer) and I do it safely. Those that make arbitrary rules about thermalling are missing and stunting a natural progression of soaring education that should occur. Most that make these rules have never learned themselves.

Yes its a good starting place rule for new students. As a cfi-g I also discourage newby's and pilots with undeveloped airmanship from low saves. But at the same time we work and work and work on proper turning and recognizing "feeling" and knowing exactly what is happening in every portion of the turn, so when they find themselves in a "bind", they're not in a freak out sense of anxiety, they turn properly and either make a save or land out, neither of which is a big deal to the guy who is prepared.

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 8:35:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:

As to low thermalling, I've made saves routinely from 200 ft. Its not the dangerous big deal that many make it out to be

It is a 'dangerous big deal' for the pilots who have died or been injured because they failed to make a low save.

Well son of flubber are you telling me that for every AG pilot out there who is turning all day long at very low levels, "its a big deal"?
Hardly, its what we do, what we need to do, and we have learned how to do it safely under conditions that are a whole lot more critical than circling a glider at 200 ft.

I really dont blame guys for having the "dont circle low" opinion. Guys just havent been exposed to it, or if they've seen it, what they saw was some guy floundering around in a panic. If you spend any time with one of the older masters of soaring, they will tell you that they have all made numerous low level saves, if you talk to anyone who sprays for a living, they will tell you that below 200 ft is our world. I want to encourage us all to continue to expand our learning and our skills. Do I advocate to make a habbit of low saves? Nope, if for nothing else, it is inefficient flying, it takes a whole lot of time to extract oneself from a hole while other guys are cruising along overhead. But I encourage us all to gain the skills necessary to make a low level save a non event.

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 9:26:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
...are you telling me that for every AG pilot out there who is turning all day long at very low levels, "its a big deal"?

No. I've nothing to say about AG pilots who also fly gliders. But your saying that glider pilots should push themselves to gradually adopt the same personal minimums as AG pilots is absurd.

snip

It is a 'dangerous big deal' for the pilots who have died or been injured because they failed to make a low save.

\snip

Incompetence on the part of one pilot is no reason to hobble competent
pilots.

As long as one obeys the laws of physics, and we're mainly talking angle
of attack here, the aircraft flies just fine. Screw up and pay the price.

OK, my flame suit is on, begin the "For the good of the masses" BS now.
I'm with Agcat on this one.

Dan, 5J

Okay. If this is an April Fool's Joke... you got me.

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 6:35:28 AM UTC-6, wrote:
R Buck, thanks for the post. It also brought back many good old memories. That movie was one of the major influencers when I was a 14 year old kid learning in the 2-22. I felt I was in heaven the day I solo'd in the 1-26! 40 years later I ended up acquiring that self same 1-26 serial number 225 and am reworking all the badges.

As to low thermalling, I've made saves routinely from 200 ft. Its not the dangerous big deal that many make it out to be, and in the "old days" of flying low performance ships, its something of an essential skill needed if you intend to get anywhere xc. The issue is not "turns at low levels", its improper turns. I turn 8 to 14 hours a day, all day long at below 200 ft with an insainly high wing loading (2000 lbs of fertilizer) and I do it safely. Those that make arbitrary rules about thermalling are missing and stunting a natural progression of soaring education that should occur. Most that make these rules have never learned themselves.

Yes its a good starting place rule for new students. As a cfi-g I also discourage newby's and pilots with undeveloped airmanship from low saves. But at the same time we work and work and work on proper turning and recognizing "feeling" and knowing exactly what is happening in every portion of the turn, so when they find themselves in a "bind", they're not in a freak out sense of anxiety, they turn properly and either make a save or land out, neither of which is a big deal to the guy who is prepared.

My hubby, John, is the proud owner of SN#226 and is in the process of cleaning it and restoring it!

Margaret Birsner MAY now be Margaret Rapaport and living in New York.

I was just going to thank everyone for the resurrection of this old thread because it reminded me about this movie and I finally got off my rear and watched it!

I have had numerous climb-outs from 200' in a Woodstock 11.9m. I used to practice them daily around 8:00 am at Zapata, TX.

However, in the prototype Carbon Dragon I once had a 63' agl climb-out at Hobbs at the beginning of a World Record attempt. This was witnessed by an FAI Official Observer who was appointed out of Geneva (pre-Paris) and who rigorously analyzed the barogram after the fact, being rather amazed at the time. This was utillizing mid morning, "soft" thermals which derived more than 50% of their bouyancy from latent heat in the humidity. There was some wind, and the only challenging moment was when I had to narrow my bank angle to make sure my inside wing lifted over a telephone wire while drifting by..

Gary Osoba