Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

In additon to all the wise words already posted, make absolutely sure
it has a recent weight and balance, and check carefully what the
minimum and maximum pilot weights are.
Some gliders have a very limited range

On May 5, 10:39*am, vic20owner wrote:
No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
are associated with buying a used glider.

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
is major (wing struts, etc)?

Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?

Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Thanks
-tom

You can write books regarding this. One man's dream is another's
nightmare. I love to hear things like "concrete swan", etc.

I own an Astir CS and it is no less problem or weight to rig than a
K6, a Standard Cirrus, etc. It is a fantastic ship, you simply have
to kn ow how to rig it rather than muscling it about mindlessly.

This is the internet. Heed and read what you will from this venue but
PLEASE base your purchase on reading books (Piggot, Wander, etc) and
on the advice of fliers you know.

You can get into a first gen glass ship at your price if you look
around quite a bit and you don't mind a ship with aesthetic flaws
(chips, gel craze to an extent, etc). All superficial, at least
should be. Do a thorough investigation of the AD's. The Astir CS,
77, II, III etc are ALL going to have to have the wing spar spiggot AD
done soon by mandate of the FAA. This isn't hype or conjecture now,
its fact. The AD can run in the 4 thousand USD range to complete.

I bought mine from the UK with this particular AD already done. This
wasn't by luck, it was through research. My ship is in fine
mechanical condition, flies like a dream and goes together as easily
as most. Work smarter in rigging, not harder.

The total price including shipping to the states in geting the ship
[ here was under 12k USD. This was a steal but if you ollok and are
flexible and creative you can find a decent ship like this.

650 insurance, 250 annual. I already owned a chute, look for deals
including a chute. For anohter 400 USD I could have gotten a chute
with the deal.

Good luck and remember, dont be hasty and read! You'll hear all kinds
of opinions like flaps.no flaps, no wood/wood, no v-tail/v-tail. I
found that most of the folks who generate such opinions have never
even flown the type of ship they offer negative viewpoints regarding.
They simply restate opinions they hear.

Good luck!

At 14:39 05 May 2009, vic20owner wrote:

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range).

When you say that range, do you mean 10 to 20 Kbucks? If so, then you've
got a lot to choose from. If you really mean around $10K, then what are
you actually seeing out there in the market for that amount? Probably old
wooden gliders (nothing wrong with wood), the Schreder homebuilts, and the
1-26.

I'm assuming this is happening in the US. The 1-26 is what it is, and it
isn't for everybody. Surely you've flown one by now. The advantages are
that it has a great support network, including its own one-class contests,
there are always some for sale and it's easy to sell one when you want
to.

Another consideration - you can get twice the glider for the money if you
have a partner. On the other hand, choosing the right partner is probably
even more important than choosing the right glider. On the gripping hand,
a partner is pretty much obligated to come and get you when you land out.

As others have said, insist on seeing a *recent* weight and balance.
Better yet, bring your own scales or watch while it is weighed. Gliders
never seem to get lighter as they age.

Don't buy a two-seater for your own private use. Use the club gliders or
rent one when you need one. Have you disassembled a two-seat Blanik? If
it's hard to assemble, you won't go cross-country.

(Oh, another advantage of the 1-26, as the fans like to remind everybody:
the retrieves are shorter.)

Jim Beckman

On May 6, 4:15*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 14:39 05 May 2009, vic20owner wrote:



I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). *

When you say that range, do you mean 10 to 20 Kbucks? *If so, then you've
got a lot to choose from. *If you really mean around $10K, then what are
you actually seeing out there in the market for that amount? *Probably old
wooden gliders (nothing wrong with wood), the Schreder homebuilts, and the
1-26.

I'm assuming this is happening in the US. *

Even if you are in the US don't discount planes from Europe! The
shipping cost are relatively inexpensive and the number of glass ships
in the 7-10000 € (10-13000$) range is wide. Look at

http://www.segelflug.de/cgi-bin/clas...e+Clubkl asse

If you buy a German registered ship it is still in conformance i.e. no
"Experimental" registration here.

Just a thought and I am sure some will balst this advice but I
married, I can take being blasted!

Bob

Another thing, K-8's sell from 1500€ (2000$). These planes are still
flyable and have pased inspection in the last year as here in Germany
all planes get inspected yearly by the LVB. I checked about shipping
on 2 months ago and was quoted a price of 2000€ from Bremerhaven to
Charleston.

Just another thought!

Although the K-8 is not and I repeat not as pretty as the 1-26!

Bob

Bob wrote:
Another thing, K-8's sell from 1500€ (2000$). These planes are still
flyable and have pased inspection in the last year as here in Germany
all planes get inspected yearly by the LVB. I checked about shipping
on 2 months ago and was quoted a price of 2000€ from Bremerhaven to
Charleston.



K8s are fun to fly, but very dispiriting if you have any headwind at
all. If you have USD10-20k to spend, and want to do any more than soar
locally around your home airfield, then glass is the only way to go
IMHO. I've had fun flying a K6, in which you can do good XC flying, but
this also becomes too tiring for a new XC pilot - serious XC in a K6 is
for the more experienced pilot.

The advantage of anything with a claimed 38:1 L/D or better (Astir,
ASW15, Libelle, etc) is that you can fly into wind and sample more than
one or two potential thermals. With the K6, K8 and, I suspect, the I-26,
if you don't connect first or second time you're on the ground.

As other posters have said, you will want a glider which (a) has a good
trailer and (b) is easy to rig. Every glider is made easier to rig with
two or more trestles (wood, nails hinges and carpet - dead easy to
build), and one man rigging gear can be really effective if you have
space in the trailer to store it. As an example, I fly a 1968 Open
Cirrus, which has pretty heavy wings and is not thought easy to rig.
With home-made (sub-USD100) rigging gear I can assemble it without help
in up to 15kt winds in about 20 mins. This means I can take it anywhere
to fly it, and even self-retrieve by hitch-hiking back and collecting
the trailer (though I've not yet alienated my friends so much as to need
to do so).

I used to fly a Grob Astir (again, not thought easy to rig), and using
two trestles and a simple wing root dolly two of us could assemble it in
15 mins with almost no lifting. One man rig would have been possible if
the trailer had had space to store the gear.

Leaving the glider assembled is very much over-rated. Apart from
anything else, if you're experienced in putting it together and taking
it apart, then you have no fear of heading off XC because, after all, it
needs to be disassembled somewhere (so why not a field?). I've known
friends who don't fly XC because they're afraid they'll have problems
retrieving the glider if they land out - I know mine will be back in the
trailer in 15 mins, so off I go.

In summary, my advice would be:

a. Buy 38:1 L/D (claimed) or better;

b. A good trailer is essential;

c. Assemble/dissassemble every time you fly until this is no barrier to
flying/going somewhere - make as many rigging aids as you need to make
this easy.

d. Fly it lots! Rig unless it's clearly not soarable. Don't be one of
those pilots who says, mid-afternoon, "it would have been worth rigging
after all". If you don't launch, it's only 15 mins (see (c) above) to
put the glider back in its trailer after all.

Chris Reed wrote:

Leaving the glider assembled is very much over-rated. Apart from
anything else, if you're experienced in putting it together and taking
it apart, then you have no fear of heading off XC because, after all, it
needs to be disassembled somewhere (so why not a field?). I've known
friends who don't fly XC because they're afraid they'll have problems
retrieving the glider if they land out

My experience was just the opposite. I had my longest x-country flight
ever in the LAK-12, i.e., I ventured much farther away from home. The
glide and performance are very confidence-inspiring. But I agree with
you that one should have competent rigging/derigging aids, which my LAK
has, so that fear of land-out is removed from the equation. I have no
fear whatsoever of outlanding and field derigging. They are easy to
take apart because precision alignment is not an issue. Reassembling
however is best done on a hard and level surface back at the airport.

Regards,

-Doug

On May 6, 9:32*pm, Chris Reed wrote:
Bob wrote:
Another thing, K-8's sell from 1500€ (2000$). These planes are still
flyable and have pased inspection in the last year as here in Germany
all planes get inspected yearly by the LVB. I checked about shipping
on 2 months ago and was quoted a price of 2000€ from Bremerhaven to
Charleston.

K8s are fun to fly, but very dispiriting if you have any headwind at
all. If you have USD10-20k to spend, and want to do any more than soar
locally around your home airfield, then glass is the only way to go
IMHO. I've had fun flying a K6, in which you can do good XC flying, but
this also becomes too tiring for a new XC pilot - serious XC in a K6 is
for the more experienced pilot.

Chris

I wasn't advocating the K-8 as much as giving it as an alternative to
the 1-26, same performance for less money.

I agree totally about glass! An Astir, Cirrus, ASW15... The list is
endless and all can be had for 10-20$ with sutable (not perfect but
usable) trailer.

Bob (Who's first plane purchase is a part of a Nimbus 3DT)

Dont rule out a share in a higher performance 2 seater. At our club we have
about 8 syndicates with high performance 2 seaters such as AS25, Duo
Discus, DG1000t and Nimbus 3dt. The share price would be about the same
but the running costs, insurance etc are split several ways. The
advantages are that you are very often flying with experienced pilots ( I
can think of several national champions and national team members.)who can
teach and coach you in cross country techniques and advanced soaring. It is
also companionable and one can be flying the aircraft whilst the other is
navigating, sorting out the sandwiches, using the radio etc.

Nigel

On May 5, 9:39*am, vic20owner wrote:
No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
are associated with buying a used glider.

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
is major (wing struts, etc)?

Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?

Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Thanks
-tom

If you plan to fly alot, buy a single seat ship. If you turn out like
most of the pilots I know, you'll probably fly solo a majority of the
time. For the occasions when you want to take someone for ride, rent
the club two-seater.

Do not base your purchase options solely on the ships you learn in.
There's way too many possibilities for a better fit for your needs
than to be limiting yourself so much.

To help get you started in your research for your first ship, pick up
a hard copy of the sailplane directory. There's a nice section by
Derek Piggot regarding different ships and handling qualities/
suitability for low-timers. It also gives other good information like
cockpit size, rigging difficulty, ground handling, etc. You could
also take a look at Piggot's book "Gliding Safety". It also has some
good information about the suitability of certain ships as a "first
glider".

Good luck!