THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and
ended up
killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or
internal drive
to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen
died.

Oh? Actually I thought the mainspar failed in the Mosquito after being
previously
overstressed in a very high G pullout elsewhere? Or am I thinking of
someone else?

He took a navigator up who had never been inside a Mosquito before. There was
little to no pre-flight briefing and the switchology on the fuel system on the
Mosquito, frankly, required a systems expert to operate it all in the dark. At
a point coinciding with fuel starvation on the main tanks, the aircraft "ran
out" of fuel and crashed in the dark, next to a village with many witnesses.
Rumors about the crash persist to this day, but the villagers described the
hapless crew struggling to restart engines as it circled lower and lower,
finally impacting the ground. It was a very odd sound for late at night - a
circling aircraft with engines cutting out, then silence for half a minute
followed by a shattering crash.

Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way
to find
out who is brave and who is not

No, and I wasn't implying anything of the kind. My statement about
courage seems
to have become out of context. IIRC, it was Gibson(?) who said that
there were 2
kinds of courage, the man who simply feels 'it can't/won't happen to
me', perhaps somewhat
unimaginative in that respect, and who is therefore more readily able to
do dangerous things
supposedly without being *really* afraid and the other kind, who *knows*
that it *can* happen to him,
perhaps through seeing just one too many close friends or associates
'get the chop' or just through
being more 'imaginative' BUT still 'carry on' regardless. IIRC, he
considered the second kind the bravest
of the brave. He put himself in the first category. I'm in no position
to argue with him, or indeed anyone
who's 'been there'.

Basil Embry, #1 bad ass of the RAF, agreed and used almost the exact wording.
"Chop rate" gives me the willies - the stoicism displayed by the Bomber Command
boys during the bloody period between 1940 to 1942 far exceeds my own; right up
there with the USN's torpedo bomber crews of 1942...

- its simply a way to expend them like
cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of
their
lives.

True enough. I could hypothesise that the first kind could suddenly
lose that belief in their immortality
that seems natural in those under about 30 through constant trauma.
Perhaps enough to make them
unable to carry on in the same way. (As did Art's "Captain Johnson" I
think). That he 'lost his bottle'
as the poms put it, was just one man reaching his breaking point.


Agree.

We did have one that fell into neither of these two categories: I served with
a chump who decided (after 4 years of quiet, relatively safe peacetime
training) that it wasn't "safe" for him to fly night landings aboard ship. He
became a pariah in my squadron and he had no reason whatever to justify all the
thousands of dollars he soaked up, just to quit when he actually had to face a
little danger. He didn't ever live it down and when I see him on occasion, I
call him a coward to his face, San Diego Sheriff uniform or not. I can't
believe he took another career where folks will be depending on him, after the
way he reacted the first time. If I had him with me in battle, I'd shove him
out ahead of me and use what was left as a barricade, because I sure as hell
wouldn't want him _beside_ me.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

IIRC, RAF let the pilots let off steam, eg get drunk and disorderly, clap,
women pregnant etc. As long as they keep flying over target. The moment
there is any hesitation, the pilots get busted on "LMF- Lack of Moral Fibre"
"WaltBJ" wrote in message
om...
Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply. The British found
this out a long long time ago. Our forces need to learn from them. I
read that in WW2 the Brits pulled the men out of the front lines after
about 30 days to decompress, get a hot shower, clean unis, decent
chow, and live normally - as normal as one could get wherever they
were. The US Army did not do this. If you get a chance watch 'The
Battle of San Pietro' - it covers the flak-happy syndrome, battle
fatigue, what ever you want to call it. If you read 'Night Fighter' by
C F Rawnsley you will read about him and 'the twitch' - too many times
to the well without a break. And the amount of 'bravery' a man has is
quite variable; some can go on and on and others need a break sooner
(famous bell curve). One of the unfortunate consequences of staying in
continuous combat too long is the degradation of judgement. FWIW I
remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his 748th
combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly
around 1971, or was it just another rumor?
Now, for the really worthless SOBs, how about that BUFF pilot who was
willing to sit alert with multiple Hbombs but his conscience wouldn't
let him go over to SEA and drop dinky little HE bombs on people.
Walt BJ

Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "Alfred Loo"
Date: 2/3/04 11:50 PM Pacific Standard Time

IRC, RAF let the pilots let off steam, eg get drunk and disorderly, clap,
women pregnant etc. As long as they keep flying over target. The moment
there is any hesitation, the pilots get busted on "LMF- Lack of Moral Fibre"

Yeah. War was hard.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(WaltBJ) wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

FWIW I remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his 748th
combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly
around 1971, or was it just another rumor?

After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell
*wouldn't* be section eight material?

In message , Mike Marron
writes
(WaltBJ) wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

FWIW I remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his 748th
combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly
around 1971, or was it just another rumor?

After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell
*wouldn't* be section eight material?

HE started with a large deposit of courage and endurance but made one
too many withdrawals?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

In article ,
M. J. Powell wrote:
In message , Mike Marron
writes
(WaltBJ) wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

FWIW I remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his 748th
combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly

After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell
*wouldn't* be section eight material?

HE started with a large deposit of courage and endurance but made one
too many withdrawals?

Sounds like some of my father's stories.

They had one guy on his ship who'd been on Royal Oak when she
was topedoed. After he joined Egret he eventually reached the
stage where he couldn't sleep - or even go - below decks (this
on the Atlantic and South Atlantic convoy runs). IIRC he was
drafted to a shore post in the end (unless I'm thinking of
someone else). Certainly my father uses this (and similar)
stories to make the point that the Navy recognised that
very brave men could get to the point where they could no
longer function, whereas the RAF would have slapped them
with LMF.
One of his college friends (or a friend thereof - have to ask)
did join the RAF and after a time was threatened with being
declared LMF. He'd been flying low-level intruder missions
in daylight over France for about a year by then. In Blenheim
IVFs. No wonder the strain was showing. He kept flying and
didn't come back from his next intruder mission. No survivors
from the crew. Another splendid success for the RAF approach.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Mike Marron
writes
(WaltBJ) wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

FWIW I remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his
748th
combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly
around 1971, or was it just another rumor?

After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell
*wouldn't* be section eight material?

HE started with a large deposit of courage and endurance but made one
too many withdrawals?

Sounds like as good a description as any.

The CO

After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell
*wouldn't* be section eight material?

Rudel had over 2,000 combat missions. The reason he didn't go nuts is because
he started out nuts, a true "war lover".

Gunther Rall, onetime LW fighter ace and third highest scoring pilot of all
time, had a similar number of wartime sorties. In direct contrast to Rudel,
Rall kept his humanity intact and further served as NATO's commanding general
for some period. He remains a warm gentleman of integrity with wit and all of
his faculties in place. It just shows that some people indeed can 'hack it'
for years in combat without losing their minds, but Rall is undoubtably an
exception in this regard.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...

After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell
*wouldn't* be section eight material?

Rudel had over 2,000 combat missions. The reason he didn't go nuts is
because
he started out nuts, a true "war lover".

Having read his book, I'd have to agree. Good pilot, good Nazi and
slightly loopy.
It was all a big adventure to him and he was sorry it was over....

Rather like a particular officer depicted in movie of "Battle of the
Bulge", who was told
by a subordinate that 'he would do anything just to keep wearing that
uniform'...
All sides have them in varying quantities I guess.

Gunther Rall, onetime LW fighter ace and third highest scoring pilot
of all
time, had a similar number of wartime sorties. In direct contrast to
Rudel,
Rall kept his humanity intact and further served as NATO's commanding
general
for some period. He remains a warm gentleman of integrity with wit
and all of
his faculties in place. It just shows that some people indeed can
'hack it'
for years in combat without losing their minds, but Rall is
undoubtably an
exception in this regard.

The Luftwaffe certainly had examples of both kinds of man. Galland was
somewhere
between the two I think.....

The CO

The Luftwaffe certainly had examples of both kinds of man. Galland was
somewhere
between the two I think.....


LOL When you make General at 30, fitting the oversize head through doorways
is going to be a problem.

G