Keeping Me Out of Your Warbird?

Dudley Henriques wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?

In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly the
airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft specific
also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
cockpit....probably in the dark .
A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.

Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look and
admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!

A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a hole in
the canopy track you can padlock. I never used one. Security was usually
supplied for me/ and/or the airplane was inside all the time.

But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too challenging.
As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.

Still, you spend $1 million for your P-51, or, like Glacier Girl, something
like $4 million on the restoration, seems adding an ignition key to start
the thing wouldn't be too prohibitive (although you might lose the "Most
Faithful Restoration" Award as a result).

Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was that
with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time worrying
about someone stealing the airplane.

I think aircraft theft in general is rather rare. But still, we're talking
about millions of dollars of value here.

There have been cases in the military of enlisted people "borrowing" an
aircraft for a joyride. I remember one incident back in the fifties when a
crew chief was taxi testing an F86D and decided on the spot to fly it. They
got him back down somehow and promptly arrested him. Some other idiot "stole
a B25 down at Keesler and got it into the air somehow. He lost an engine,
then tried a turn into his dead left engine at about 100kts. Needless to
say, he morted as the airplane went into the gulf off the beach at Biloxi.
Bottom line....it's possible......but considering the fact that the pilot
would first have to be current in type and motovated to steal the airplane;
the available window for potential would be theives is quite small I would
imagine.

I suppose so. You could never fly it safely on your own after you
successfully stole it, since there aren't that many, and the sudden
appearance of a newly painted P-51 (and even more so the more rare
P-39, P-40 or P-38) would no doubt raise suspicions.

The thief would have to be the type that just wanted to possess something
rare and beautiful for himself, like a piece of art, where he gained
pleasure and satisfaction just looking at it (as opposed to spending
a bundle on insurance, oil, gas and maintenance per hour of operation).

I guess having a P-38 painted up with "Glacier Girl" in my yard as a lawn
ornament would probably attract attention.

Well there are lots of F-16's around! Could I grab one of those without
too much problem?


SMH

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?

In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
cockpit....probably in the dark .
A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.

Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look
and
admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!

A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a
hole in
the canopy track you can padlock. I never used one. Security was usually
supplied for me/ and/or the airplane was inside all the time.

But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too
challenging.
As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.

Still, you spend $1 million for your P-51, or, like Glacier Girl,
something
like $4 million on the restoration, seems adding an ignition key to start
the thing wouldn't be too prohibitive (although you might lose the "Most
Faithful Restoration" Award as a result).

Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was
that
with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time
worrying
about someone stealing the airplane.

I think aircraft theft in general is rather rare. But still, we're
talking
about millions of dollars of value here.

There have been cases in the military of enlisted people "borrowing" an
aircraft for a joyride. I remember one incident back in the fifties when
a
crew chief was taxi testing an F86D and decided on the spot to fly it.
They
got him back down somehow and promptly arrested him. Some other idiot
"stole
a B25 down at Keesler and got it into the air somehow. He lost an
engine,
then tried a turn into his dead left engine at about 100kts. Needless to
say, he morted as the airplane went into the gulf off the beach at
Biloxi.
Bottom line....it's possible......but considering the fact that the
pilot
would first have to be current in type and motovated to steal the
airplane;
the available window for potential would be theives is quite small I
would
imagine.

I suppose so. You could never fly it safely on your own after you
successfully stole it, since there aren't that many, and the sudden
appearance of a newly painted P-51 (and even more so the more rare
P-39, P-40 or P-38) would no doubt raise suspicions.

The thief would have to be the type that just wanted to possess something
rare and beautiful for himself, like a piece of art, where he gained
pleasure and satisfaction just looking at it (as opposed to spending
a bundle on insurance, oil, gas and maintenance per hour of operation).

I guess having a P-38 painted up with "Glacier Girl" in my yard as a lawn
ornament would probably attract attention.

Well there are lots of F-16's around! Could I grab one of those without
too much problem?




Well, keep in mind that the guy who stole the 190 was current in hot props,
and who knows about the light situation. It's definitely doable by someone
like this, especially if the guy had some science background that included
using the metric system. At least he could put 2x2 together and guess at the
rest. I would say however, that this 190 guy had to be a fairly good stick,
and probably had at least some inkling of what he was doing to be able to
start the airplane. Once started, he would have been fairly at home with
basically what to do to handle it.
As for the average Cessna driver climbing into either Vlado's or my 51 and
making off with it; I don't know what Vlado would say to this, but my guess
would be a mort on takeoff, if he could even get it started! Cranking a 51
can get a bit hairy if you don't know what you're doing. The big radials,
like a 2800 or even worse a 3350 can be a nightmare fire hazard if you're
not careful, even for the "more experienced" among us!! :-))
For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned, they're
not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it would
be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was available.
The thing with jets is that they are extremely prestart and start checklist
sequence oriented, and not knowing what has to be thrown at what time and
within what parameters during the start sequence would REALLY foul up a
beginner!! In the T38 for example, you just basically push the start
buttons......but it's strongly suggested that you push them at the right
time!!!!! I'm guessing a hot start if anything at all in some of these fast
jets, or an engine fire. Also, assuming the idiot got it started, and just
going through an engine start checklist in my head for the Viper, I can't
imagine anyone pulling this off......God....JFS......switch
positioning......throttle positioning......getting essential systems on line
in proper sequence.....perhaps a Chimpanzee with an unlimited life span
trying everything possible might pull it off in ten million years if the
external power unit held out that long without overheating
:-)))))........but a thief in the night who's never been in the bird
before..................I don't know Stephen..........:-)))
I do understand your 190 guy though. With his prior experience in prop
fighters and his extreme motivation, it works for me. In fact, if it had
been me, I'm fairly certain I could have pulled it off myself, or at least I
would have tried anyway :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too
challenging.
As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.

Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was
that
with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time
worrying
about someone stealing the airplane.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to fly the aircraft away to steal it;
I recall an article in a UK aviation magazine a couple of years ago
interviewing a warbird owner (IIRC a Spitfire).
He had arranged to go away on business for a couple of days, but cancelled
at the last minute. On visiting the hangar where his aircraft was stored, he
was rather concerned to find it being loaded onto a lorry (I think the
aircraft had the wings removed at the time). A timely call to the local
police soon saw the thieves quickly under arrest, but I believe the owner
was a bit worried over the relative ease at which the aircraft could have
been stolen.I think the article mentioned that it was an inside job, with
one of the employees on the airfield tipping off the would-be thieves when a
suitable opportunity arose.

Jon.

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:13:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned, they're
not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it would
be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was available.

Lemme think about how many private pilot/fast-jet wannabes are gonna
survive a J-75 AB light and takeoff roll with the nosewheel still down
past 190 KIAS or coming into the overrun at 210 KIAS and getting it
down with sufficient runway to stop.

First try at a traditional "flare" is going to result in a balloon
that will have to be seen to be believed.

I recall a "re-qual" check for an old friend who needed "jet currency"
before going to A-10 school. In a T-38 he chopped the power and
"rounded out" at fifty feet in the air. I caught the bird on first
bounce with full AB and finessed it back into flight before a second
impact. Scared the bejesus (and maybe more) out of me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:13:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned,
they're
not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it
would
be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was
available.

Lemme think about how many private pilot/fast-jet wannabes are gonna
survive a J-75 AB light and takeoff roll with the nosewheel still down
past 190 KIAS or coming into the overrun at 210 KIAS and getting it
down with sufficient runway to stop.

First try at a traditional "flare" is going to result in a balloon
that will have to be seen to be believed.

I recall a "re-qual" check for an old friend who needed "jet currency"
before going to A-10 school. In a T-38 he chopped the power and
"rounded out" at fifty feet in the air. I caught the bird on first
bounce with full AB and finessed it back into flight before a second
impact. Scared the bejesus (and maybe more) out of me.

Yeah...ain't it the truth :-) Many is the novice who learned about
uncontrollable sink by getting a 38 get behind .6 aoa on final!!!!
:-))))
I remember one ground technician who won a ride in the T38 on one of those
"incentive" programs they had for the great unwashed. He apparently had a
bit of light airplane time and a private ticket. We watched as he prepped
for the flight all week, after begging to be put in the front seat. One of
the fixed wing IP's volunteered to take him so the front seat was no
problem. They gave him a dash one to study to make it more interesting for
him. The big day arrived. The IP talked him through the start and taxi out.
The IP, a buddy of mine, being a FWTP, kept a running log of the flight as
it progressed. Here's what happened as I remember it anyway!!! :-))) It was
priceless!!!
He related later that the guy was an absolute hoot on the ICS; using all
kinds of "fighter pilot" slang talk as he was walked through the start and
on the way out to the active. He got himself lined up ok after a short
discussion about the do's and don't's of NWS as that applies to using
maximum differential brake and the NWS at the same time
:-)), and then the IP walked him
through the line up check and told him what to expect on the takeoff run.
"How bad can it be?" the guy said. "Oh, the first time can be pretty fast if
you're not used to it", said the IP. "Ah.......No sweat....and roger
that......" says the tech!!!
The IP had briefed for a max AB climb to give the guy a real shot at the
Talon's performance.
All through the line up check the guy was answering back with these
"ah....roger's....and......ahhhhhhh.........ro ger that". Then the IP walked
him through the throttles up and instrument checks and release...then he
turned him loose. Immediately after brake release, the guy just starts
shouting in the ICS. "Oh Baby!!!!....Oh Baby!!!!!!...Oh man..........Oh my
God!!!!........Jesus H. Christ!!!!........Oh God help me!!!!!"
The IP was laughing so hard he damn near forgot to take the airplane before
things got out of hand. He damn near overshot rotation and gear retract
max!!!
He said he was in balls ass hysterics as he finally took the airplane away
from the guy and rotated. The way he described it in the log was that the
"pilots respiration rate increased as the square of the aircraft
velocity"!!!!
He swore if he hadn't taken it away, the guy would still be accelerating
with the mains on the ground somewhere....to someplace.......and THAT was
back in 1975!!!! You can only imagine where the damn airplane would be by
NOW!!! :-)))))
Dudley

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?

In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
cockpit....probably in the dark .
A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.

Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look
and
admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!

Well, there is the issue of ATC tracking you and finking on where you went.
To avoid that we're talking low level work which raises the difficulty
factor
a bit.
That or I guess you could work in some poor coverage area like the Rockies.
Just don't try it over the midwest and expect to get away with it.

Stephen Harding wrote in message ...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?

In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly the
airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft specific
also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
cockpit....probably in the dark .
A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.

Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

You're thinking of Bruce Carr from the 354th FG. He was supposedly
shot down over Czechoslovakia, stole a FW-190 and flew back to his
base in France. The story has been told on the internet and in
magazines, but I've never seen it included in a history of the 354th
and I beleive there is some debate about whether or not it really
happened.

~Michael

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.



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"John S. Shinal" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.

Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a Tri-Pacer.
We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to his
tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT on!!!
So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field after
him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen people
hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
waving like a bunch of banshees!!
He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:29:43 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"John S. Shinal" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.

Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a Tri-Pacer.
We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to his
tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT on!!!
So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field after
him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen people
hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
waving like a bunch of banshees!!
He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Didn't see it myself, but friends who did swear it is true. A locally
(to me) based Cherokee successfully took off with a 5-gallon bucket
full of concrete still tied to the wing tie-down. Upon landing, the
bucket flailed around and damaged the underside of the wing and flap.

I actually did catch a student taxiing out (with instructor) one day
with the rudder gust-lock still installed (this was on a C-172 as I
recall).

Two of us sitting in the office saw it at the same time, and we both
bolted out the door running after the taxiing 172. We did catch it,
and pounded on the sides of the doors to get their attention and
to get them to stop. The looks on their faces (before & after they
realized the gust-lock was still in place) were priceless!

Bela P. Havasreti