Powerflarm's unknown effect on the first contests in US

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:56:29 +0200, BruceGreeff
wrote:

I think there is too much FUD around Flarm (That's IBM speak for Fear
Uncertainty and Doubt)

We've been through the same "FUD" in Italy ;-)

Experience of introducing Flarm in the south African racing environment
was effectively painless. There was never a decrease in safety
attributable to Flarm.

I've flown more than 20 competitions, maybe 30, since Flarm was
available in Europe (2005 I think). So far, the races have been safer
in my opinion. No collisions between Flarm-equipped gliders.

To my knowledge there was no material increase in leeching. If you can
keep up to leech, the Flarm is unlikely to help much...

Since Flarm "radar" or display has been available (a couple of racing
seasons), it has been just a little easier to catch-up with a glider I
was trying to leech, after I lost visual contact for a while.

If you are close enough to the other thermal to be able to use the
information about relative climb rate - you can probably verify the
differential as effectively visually.

The climb rate is so unreliable (most probably uncompensated) that it
never helped me locate a thermal I didn't see earlier (gliders, birds
etc.).
It has helped me understand that I was not centered correctly, on some
occasions.
Once the two glider are established in the same thermal in a steady
climb, the value shown by the display becomes comparable and reliable.
By them it's too late to be of any use except: "darn, I have to
squeeze the best lift there apparently is".

Under cloudstreets, or convergence lines, it is now easier to compare
the different flight paths and decisions. I may say that I now learn
much more from each flight.


Have contests become safer?

I believe contest are safer. And, some may be surprised by this
statement, more fun for me.
Let me explain. Racing gliders are now a bit easier to spot in the
sky, and I get more "awareness" of how they're doing. So, I feel more
involved.

. There are at least three pilots who would still be with
us if they had Flarm working.

Same in Italy. There was a collision, killing one. The other glider
had no Flarm on board.


Some use it well, some don't - as with everything.

Cloud flying is prohibited in Italy. In the pre-start tactical game, I
have seen Flarm objects flying higher than cloudbase, above me.
Was Flarm only a witness of their behaviour, or an encouragement? I
don't know, but I know that loggers and software allow for analysis
and, if guilty, penalization of the offenders.

aldo cernezzi
-
www.voloavela.it
The Italian Gliding magazine



Cheers
Bruce

On Jan 8, 7:17*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Where do you get that "Flarmers" will be able to leach better than non-
flarmers. Really? Kindly explain how that will work. I've never seen
that fear raised in any discussion of Flarm.

The whole leaching question is a tempest in a teapot. *If it bothers
you, turn on Stealth mode and you can't be leached (but will still get
collision warning).
Kirk
66

Kirk,
My understanding is that if stealth mode is off then a pilot can see
the climb rate of other flarm equipped gliders in the area: One way
to do it is using Winpilot - see this from the winpilot site:
"FLARM Support: Added the ability to track several other gliders in
the vicinity that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
visually the position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also
indicate weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their
current climb rate is."
see the graphic on the main page.
http://www.winpilot.com/images4/News2.gif

seeyou mobile does the same as do other systems:
http://gliderpilot.org/files/FlarmFl...le%20Flarm.jpg


So is it a fair competition if in early 2011 part of the fleet is
allowed to share remote thermal sensing data?
Like shooting fish in a barrel, not a contest. To me it appears that
we are allowing team flying - with good displays and coordination 2 or
more pilots could team fly a whole contest season and never have to
talk on the radio. So maybe I turn my stealth mode on to prevent
others from getting my data but that won't stop other pilots from team
flying via flarm.

I do not understand why we would introduce it "unrestricted" for
2011. I realize we/Rules Committee do[es] not have familiarity with
the system, but other countries do, can we learn from them rather than
risk as much chaos? Andy posted the UK 2010 flarm rules earlier in
this discussion, to me it makes sense for us to start off with the
stealth mode required too, that gets the anti-collision function and
reduces the data sharing issues. This is my request to the Rules
Committee.


To Henry's point i do think there is some risk, especially early on of
pilots focusing on their "show me where to find lift radar screen"
that they don't look out the window for the non flarm guys as much.
Ironically could be more dangerous. omg I am agreeing with Henry
on something? ;-)

Chris

On Jan 8, 8:46*pm, chris wrote:
On Jan 8, 7:17*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Where do you get that "Flarmers" will be able to leach better than non-
flarmers. Really? Kindly explain how that will work. I've never seen
that fear raised in any discussion of Flarm.

The whole leaching question is a tempest in a teapot. *If it bothers
you, turn on Stealth mode and you can't be leached (but will still get
collision warning).
Kirk
66

Kirk,
My understanding is that if stealth mode is off then a pilot can see
the climb rate of other flarm equipped gliders in the area: *One way
to do it is using Winpilot - see this from the winpilot site:
"FLARM Support: Added the ability to track several other gliders in
the vicinity that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
visually the position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also
indicate weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their
current climb rate is."
see the graphic on the main page.http://www.winpilot.com/images4/News2.gif

seeyou mobile does the same as do other systems:http://gliderpilot.org/files/FlarmFl...rformance/SeeY...

So is it a fair competition if in early 2011 part of the fleet is
allowed to share remote thermal sensing data?
Like shooting fish in a barrel, not a contest. *To me it appears that
we are allowing team flying - with good displays and coordination 2 or
more pilots could team fly a whole contest season and never have to
talk on the radio. *So maybe I turn my stealth mode on to prevent
others from getting my data but that won't stop other pilots from team
flying via flarm.

I do not understand why we would introduce it "unrestricted" for
2011. *I realize we/Rules Committee do[es] not have familiarity with
the system, but other countries do, can we learn from them rather than
risk as much chaos? * Andy posted the UK 2010 flarm rules earlier in
this discussion, to me it makes sense for us to start off with the
stealth mode required too, that gets the anti-collision function and
reduces the data sharing issues. This is my request to the Rules
Committee.

To Henry's point i do think there is some risk, especially early on of
pilots focusing on their "show me where to find lift radar screen"
that they don't look out the window for the non flarm guys as much.
Ironically could be more dangerous. * * omg I am agreeing with Henry
on something? ;-)

Chris

If seeing other competitors climb rates is a competitive advantage
then that's an additional incentive for everyone to equip with
PowerFLARM. That is exactly where we would have been with MIRA except
that for the 2011 racing reason it's still voluntary and no pilot will
lose a contest day to a FLARM failure.

Andy (GY)

On Jan 9, 10:18*am, Andy wrote:

If seeing other competitors climb rates is a competitive advantage
then that's *an additional incentive for everyone to equip with
PowerFLARM.
Andy (GY)

So at what point do we just call them "cross country cooperative fly
togethers" and remove the words competition and contest?

The ideal setup is a duo discus with large format computer screens,
the guy in back can just operate the computers and track all the other
gliders and navigate to each marked thermal.

Chris

On Jan 8, 8:46*pm, chris wrote:

Kirk,
My understanding is that if stealth mode is off then a pilot can see
the climb rate of other flarm equipped gliders in the area: *

So maybe I turn my stealth mode on to prevent
others from getting my data but that won't stop other pilots from team
flying via flarm.

Chris

That's the whole point: I you are worried someone will leech (got it
right this time!) your thermal off FLARM, then you select Stealth mode
and no one gets your climb info - and you don't get anyone else's
climb info. But you ALL still get collision warning.

So if all the hotshots are worried about team flying and leeching by
newbies - all it takes is for them to get together in the bar before
the race and agree on selecting Stealth mode. If anyone cheats and
doesn't stealth-up, he still won't see anything unless others also
cheat - and anyone with a Flarm could momentarily deselect Stealth
mode and possibly catch the cheaters.

Sure, people could team fly if they agreed ahead of time - but
remember the flarm logger records the mode, so the probability of
getting caught is pretty high - because anyone can at any time see
that you are not in Stealth mode!

Guys, you are overthinking this issue. At the ranges Flarm will show
other gliders, you either are going to already see it cranking and
banking in a boomer, or by the time you get there the bubble is
gone....

Everyone just take a deep breath, relax, and let's go out and have
fun.

Kirk
66