ASW20 or LS6

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:16:26 +0000, Jonathon May
wrote:


You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.
Buy an LS8,put an extra 1000hrs in your log book and think again.

1.000 hrs before flying a flapped ship?
LMAO!

In my club 100 hrs total time and a completed 300 km task were the
requirement to fly the ASW-20L. Perfectly adequate.

People were flying Astir, ASW-15 and DG-300 before the ASW-20.


Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:16:26 +0000, Jonathon May
wrote:


You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.
Buy an LS8,put an extra 1000hrs in your log book and think again.

1.000 hrs before flying a flapped ship?
LMAO!

In my club 100 hrs total time and a completed 300 km task were the
requirement to fly the ASW-20L. Perfectly adequate.

In my club it was similar. After a 300 km task (the gliders were mostly
pegases for that) you could take an LS3 or similar flapped gliders, or
a janus.


--

Michel TALON

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:16:26 +0000, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.

Agreed. The 20s POH says that the first recovery action is to push the
flap fully negative and that the glider will often auto-recover with no
further action by the pilot. Height loss and speed gain are impressive: I
entered an incipient spin at 45 kts, stopped rotation in a 1/4 turn and
then pulled out, returning to level flight 300 ft lower and with 80 kts
on the clock.

You're quite busy on take-off too: the POH says to start the run with one
notch of negative flap for better aileron control. The ailerons start to
bite about 30 kts and you need to move to neutral flap at that point
because it won't lift off in negative flap, but you NEED to be in neutral
before you hit 40 or it will pop up when you move the flap lever. If you
miss neutral and hit thermal the first few launches, leave it there or
you'll likely to find yourself way below the tow plane.

The other thing that nobody has mentioned yet applies to both gliders.
Learning to fly a flapped glider is similar to learning to drive in an
automatic car and then transitioning to a manual shift. By that I mean
that operating the flaps is easy, but being in the right flap setting at
all times and getting it engrained that the flap lever is your primary
speed control takes time: it took me 30-35 hours to get to the point
where flap use became something I didn't need to think about before doing
it. I had nearly 300 hours by the time I flew a '20, with at least half
of than on the club's Pegase and Discus.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

In article ,
Martin Gregorie wrote:

You're quite busy on take-off too: the POH says to start the run with one
notch of negative flap for better aileron control. The ailerons start to
bite about 30 kts and you need to move to neutral flap at that point
because it won't lift off in negative flap

Not so! Guess how I know.... It took considerably longer to lift off
than usual, and was *weird* on tow until I finally pulled my head out
and realized I was in the wrong flap setting, but it does work.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On 1/31/2011 1:16 PM, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.

Having transitioned - safely & entirely uneventfully (in the negative sense of
things) - from 2-33s/1-26s to a no-negative-flap, spoiler-less (i.e. large
deflection landing flaps-only), 'in-between'/non-nose tow-hooked single-seat
sailplane, with a total of 128+ glider-only hours logged, I would suggest the
above position may be just a tad overstated.

How one mentally approaches flaps and their use (or, non-use, as the
transitioning-case may be) is, I believe, vastly more important than seeking
comfort in hard-n-fast 'stick-time rules.'

For example, if the flaps are camber-changing-only (e.g. LS-6), you can simply
set/leave them at zero until such time as you feel comfortable experimenting
with them. Both ships permit use of spoilers to assist initial aileron
response if aero-towing (just as a transitionee might already be doing in
unflapped glass). Further, Schleicher's '20 (and Rolladen-Schneider's LS-6)
allow (insist-on) the use of spoilers as the primary glideslope control
device. (Kinda-sorta related, just because the ship being transitioning to has
retractable gear is no reason to believe one *must* retract or cycle the gear
on early flights.)

No harm in using the KISS philosophy of transitioning...

If you die on your first flight in such a ship using such a technique, perhaps
small comfort can be (briefly) obtained from the knowledge flap (mis-)use
wasn't the proximate cause of death. :-)


I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.

Again, this advice may be OK (as far as it goes), perhaps even in the Pilot's
Operating Handbook (I don't know)...but not without some caveats. The devil -
as always - is in the details...

The first *2* flapped ships I transitioned to *had* no negative flaps (or, any
spoilers, either). And while in neither one did I ever experience an
inadvertent 'departure from controlled flight', in both the best (IMHO)
potential-overspeed-avoidance device in their bag of tricks had such a thing
happened and startled/scared me into not 'simply'/immediately reducing the AoA
(which worked every time I used it) would have been to *'2nd-immediately'*
roll/pump on ALL the flaps. Sure this would have had the short-term effect of
increasing the wing's effective AoA..but so what, as neither ship could
'reasonably' be induced to exceed max-flap/maneuvering speeds with 'em full
down. It would've bought time to sort things out without eating vast vertical
gobs of airspace or zooming above maneuvering speed.

So - is it preferable to 'inadvertently spin down through a thermal gaggle' in
an AS-W 20 and recover at high-ish speeds with negative flap, or, to spiral
down 'perhaps somewhat stalled' but vertically somewhat slower with full
flaps? (This is not a trick question.)

My vote is to avoid the situation in the first place. This'll work in the
LS-6, too. :-)

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. Apologies for treading so far out onto this particular discussional ice,
but I must've 'felt a need'...!

On Jan 31, 8:34*pm, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 1/31/2011 1:16 PM, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.

Having transitioned - safely & entirely uneventfully (in the negative sense of
things) - from 2-33s/1-26s to a no-negative-flap, spoiler-less (i.e. large
deflection landing flaps-only), 'in-between'/non-nose tow-hooked single-seat
sailplane, with a total of 128+ glider-only hours logged, I would suggest the
above position may be just a tad overstated.

How one mentally approaches flaps and their use (or, non-use, as the
transitioning-case may be) is, I believe, vastly more important than seeking
comfort in hard-n-fast 'stick-time rules.'

For example, if the flaps are camber-changing-only (e.g. LS-6), you can simply
set/leave them at zero until such time as you feel comfortable experimenting
with them. Both ships permit use of spoilers to assist initial aileron
response if aero-towing (just as a transitionee might already be doing in
unflapped glass). Further, Schleicher's '20 (and Rolladen-Schneider's LS-6)
allow (insist-on) the use of spoilers as the primary glideslope control
device. (Kinda-sorta related, just because the ship being transitioning to has
retractable gear is no reason to believe one *must* retract or cycle the gear
on early flights.)

No harm in using the KISS philosophy of transitioning...

If you die on your first flight in such a ship using such a technique, perhaps
small comfort can be (briefly) obtained from the knowledge flap (mis-)use
wasn't the proximate cause of death. :-)

I have flown

neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.

Again, this advice may be OK (as far as it goes), perhaps even in the Pilot's
Operating Handbook (I don't know)...but not without some caveats. The devil -
as always - is in the details...

The first *2* flapped ships I transitioned to *had* no negative flaps (or, any
spoilers, either). And while in neither one did I ever experience an
inadvertent 'departure from controlled flight', in both the best (IMHO)
potential-overspeed-avoidance device in their bag of tricks had such a thing
happened and startled/scared me into not 'simply'/immediately reducing the AoA
(which worked every time I used it) would have been to *'2nd-immediately'*
roll/pump on ALL the flaps. Sure this would have had the short-term effect of
increasing the wing's effective AoA..but so what, as neither ship could
'reasonably' be induced to exceed max-flap/maneuvering speeds with 'em full
down. It would've bought time to sort things out without eating vast vertical
gobs of airspace or zooming above maneuvering speed.

So - is it preferable to 'inadvertently spin down through a thermal gaggle' in
an AS-W 20 and recover at high-ish speeds with negative flap, or, to spiral
down 'perhaps somewhat stalled' but vertically somewhat slower with full
flaps? (This is not a trick question.)

My vote is to avoid the situation in the first place. This'll work in the
LS-6, too. :-)

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. Apologies for treading so far out onto this particular discussional ice,
but I must've 'felt a need'...!

Well said it is always best to avoid the situation in the first place,
but there is also no substitute for knowing proper
recovery technique when it does happen.
To answer Johns question about my experience, let me first say that I
have just under 100 hours in the 2-33.
That being said I have no intention to go out ,buy a high performance
glass ship, and go soaring with the
thought that I will just get the hang of it in a few hours of flight.
My intentions are to purchase the glider now during the winter months
to "hopefully" fly after at least 6 more months of active gliding
starting in the spring. I was planning to get a few more hours in the
2-33 first, especially after 6 months of no flying(it snows up here in
northern Indiana),I would want to be refreshed in the trainer
.. After that I plan to transition to the Clubs 1-36 glider for a while
and then get some additional hours in a 2 place glass ship. Not sure
when I will actually be ,ready to fly the new one, I don't know how I
could put a minimum hours requirement on it. I was leaving it up to my
confidence level and abilities to determine when the time would be
right. We have some excellent instructors at our glider port who will
always keep a watchful eye out.
I am very competitive and welcome the increased complexity and
challenge of a flapped ship. I am looking forward to cross county
flights and eventually competition. Am I sound in my thinking, or am I
out in left field?

On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, binks wrote:
Am I sound in my thinking, or am I
out in left field?

You're in the front seat of a 2-33 looking for shortcuts that really
don't exist.

Modern glass ships aren't "hard" to fly, but they presume a sharp
pilot with some finesse that generally isn't learned in a barge like a
2-33. You don't need answers on r.a.s. (witness willing advice from
people who HAVEN'T FLOWN THESE SHIPS (that's a pet peeve)), you need a
coach. The ideal coach is a CFIG who can fly with you and has
experience in the general direction you are headed (XC, glass,
competition, record setting, whatever). There's been some good advice
given in this thread, also some complete crap. I remember well being
in your shoes and have nothing but encouragement to offer. Good luck!

-Evan Ludeman / T8 (ASW-20B)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:17:09 -0800, binks wrote:

I am very competitive and welcome the increased complexity and challenge
of a flapped ship. I am looking forward to cross county flights and
eventually competition. Am I sound in my thinking, or am I out in left
field?

I agree with Evan, but would also add that you should get some time in a
two seat glass ship before tackling a glass single seater. You'll learn a
lot about speed control from flying any of them. Good speed control is a
necessity because a flapped glider is much more slippery than you'll be
expecting.

The ASK-21 is a pussycat and very well behaved. Time in one would be good
preparation for the likes of baby Grobs, Juniors and Libelles.

Before tackling anything more slippery (Pegase, Discus, LS-6 or ASW-20),
a bit of time in a Grob G.103 would be useful. The G.103, unlike the
ASK-21, has a tendency to drop its nose and accelerate in turns.

BTW, I've flown all the types I've mentioned here and also have one
flight in a 2-33, so have some idea of how it handles and its dragginess.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, binks wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:34*pm, Bob Whelan wrote:





On 1/31/2011 1:16 PM, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.

Having transitioned - safely & entirely uneventfully (in the negative sense of
things) - from 2-33s/1-26s to a no-negative-flap, spoiler-less (i.e. large
deflection landing flaps-only), 'in-between'/non-nose tow-hooked single-seat
sailplane, with a total of 128+ glider-only hours logged, I would suggest the
above position may be just a tad overstated.

How one mentally approaches flaps and their use (or, non-use, as the
transitioning-case may be) is, I believe, vastly more important than seeking
comfort in hard-n-fast 'stick-time rules.'

For example, if the flaps are camber-changing-only (e.g. LS-6), you can simply
set/leave them at zero until such time as you feel comfortable experimenting
with them. Both ships permit use of spoilers to assist initial aileron
response if aero-towing (just as a transitionee might already be doing in
unflapped glass). Further, Schleicher's '20 (and Rolladen-Schneider's LS-6)
allow (insist-on) the use of spoilers as the primary glideslope control
device. (Kinda-sorta related, just because the ship being transitioning to has
retractable gear is no reason to believe one *must* retract or cycle the gear
on early flights.)

No harm in using the KISS philosophy of transitioning...

If you die on your first flight in such a ship using such a technique, perhaps
small comfort can be (briefly) obtained from the knowledge flap (mis-)use
wasn't the proximate cause of death. :-)

I have flown

neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.

Again, this advice may be OK (as far as it goes), perhaps even in the Pilot's
Operating Handbook (I don't know)...but not without some caveats. The devil -
as always - is in the details...

The first *2* flapped ships I transitioned to *had* no negative flaps (or, any
spoilers, either). And while in neither one did I ever experience an
inadvertent 'departure from controlled flight', in both the best (IMHO)
potential-overspeed-avoidance device in their bag of tricks had such a thing
happened and startled/scared me into not 'simply'/immediately reducing the AoA
(which worked every time I used it) would have been to *'2nd-immediately'*
roll/pump on ALL the flaps. Sure this would have had the short-term effect of
increasing the wing's effective AoA..but so what, as neither ship could
'reasonably' be induced to exceed max-flap/maneuvering speeds with 'em full
down. It would've bought time to sort things out without eating vast vertical
gobs of airspace or zooming above maneuvering speed.

So - is it preferable to 'inadvertently spin down through a thermal gaggle' in
an AS-W 20 and recover at high-ish speeds with negative flap, or, to spiral
down 'perhaps somewhat stalled' but vertically somewhat slower with full
flaps? (This is not a trick question.)

My vote is to avoid the situation in the first place. This'll work in the
LS-6, too. :-)

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. Apologies for treading so far out onto this particular discussional ice,
but I must've 'felt a need'...!

Well said it is always best to avoid the situation in the first place,
but there is also no substitute for knowing proper
recovery technique when it does happen.
To answer Johns question about my experience, let me first say that I
have just under 100 hours in the 2-33.
That being said I have no intention to go out ,buy a high performance
glass ship, and go soaring with the
thought that I will just get the hang of it in a few hours of flight.
My intentions are to purchase the glider now during the winter months
to "hopefully" fly after at least 6 more months of active gliding
starting in the spring. I was planning to get a few more hours in the
2-33 first, especially after 6 months of no flying(it snows up here in
northern Indiana),I would want to be refreshed in the trainer
. After that I plan to transition to the Clubs 1-36 glider for a while
and then get some additional hours in a 2 place glass ship. Not sure
when I will actually be ,ready to fly the new one, I don't know how I
could put a minimum hours requirement on it. I was leaving it up to my
confidence level and abilities to determine when the time would be
right. We have some excellent instructors at our glider port who will
always keep a watchful eye out.
I am very competitive and welcome the increased complexity and
challenge of a flapped ship. I am looking forward to cross county
flights and eventually competition. Am I sound in my thinking, or am I
out in left field?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

- In my opinion, you should first do the fiberglass transition before
you even look at a fiberglass single seater... Then, go rent a
fiberglass singleseater and fly some more. Take a week (or more) of
vacations and travel to Arizona, California or Nevada (predicatable
good weather). Then look at flaps. Spitzers were good army training
gliders 50+ years ago and overwhelming majority of civilized world
since then successfully transitioned to sailplanes. My guess is that
you weren’t drawn to the sport because of ancient Greece. There are
numerous FBOs clubs offering fibrerglass training/transition. Just
because you might survive first couple of hours flying a fiberglass,
flapped sailplane doesn’t mean you wont have gaps in your training.
Try avoiding situations where you were wishing to be on the ground
when flying a sailplane... This should be fun, there is no reason to
expose yourself to unnecessary and easily avoidable risk.

On Jan 31, 12:16*pm, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.

Flapped glass ships are more slippery to be sure. I watched a friend
pull the wings off a 301 Libelle when the airspeed got away from her
shortly after putting it in negative flap on her first flight.

My first flight in a flapped ship was three years later in an LS-3. I
was 18 and had 79 total hours. It was a dream to fly with no bad
habits. Four years after that I got into a Ventus A with a grand total
of 155 hours under my belt. It was much more of a handful, especially
with the 16.6 meter tips.

I suppose it's mostly about knowing when you're ready and taking
proper care - regardless of what you hear on r.a.s. If you're not
sure, get some dual time with an instructor who has high performance
glass experience.

9B