GWB and the Air Guard

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:45:51 GMT,
(John S. Shinal) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

....working off a script of DNC "talking points."

As a voice of reason in this whole tempest - does GWB's
assignment to an obsolescent platform have anything to do with this
fulfillment of duty ?

I wasn't aware that anyone's "dream sheet" was ever a sure
thing ? Didn't he take what he was told to, i.e. the Deuce ? It sounds
like the luck of the draw to me...

Folks who get UPT enroute to a Guard slot are locked into the unit
equipment. No "dream sheet" involved. It's resulted in some shopping
around by prospective trainees for a guard unit that's got the desired
equipment.

Among some folks that I met at fighter lead-in training when I was
instructing were Dino Martin (Dean's son) who was killed flying an F-4
into a mountain in California, and Ross Perot (son of Ross Perot) who
flew F-4s for the TANG.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

Folks who get UPT enroute to a Guard slot are locked into the unit
equipment. No "dream sheet" involved. It's resulted in some shopping
around by prospective trainees for a guard unit that's got the desired
equipment.

I know of a couple of enlisted crewdogs who are now pilots because of
the guard. One tried his whole first enlistment to get into the Academy,
then got out and joined the Guard. Another did 10 years active before
transfer to the Guard. They both fly C-130J and are loving it.

They went where they were needed, spent a year in the unit while getting
their Degree and Commission, and then applied for a pilot slot.

If you want to fly, and your parents aren't politicians or know one, then
this is a pretty good way to go :-)

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:45:51 GMT,
(John S. Shinal) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

....working off a script of DNC "talking points."

As a voice of reason in this whole tempest - does GWB's
assignment to an obsolescent platform have anything to do with this
fulfillment of duty ?

I wasn't aware that anyone's "dream sheet" was ever a sure
thing ? Didn't he take what he was told to, i.e. the Deuce ? It sounds
like the luck of the draw to me...

Folks who get UPT enroute to a Guard slot are locked into the unit
equipment. No "dream sheet" involved. It's resulted in some shopping
around by prospective trainees for a guard unit that's got the desired
equipment.

Among some folks that I met at fighter lead-in training when I was
instructing were Dino Martin (Dean's son) who was killed flying an F-4
into a mountain in California, and Ross Perot (son of Ross Perot) who
flew F-4s for the TANG.

Ed, when was Martin in LIFT? I saw a documentary recently on his dad, and it
mentioned the son's accident. I had vague memories of it being in the news
when it happened, but found little on the web about his ANG experience. Made
me kind of curious as to his story (not all that many sons of the rich and
famous saw fit to serve in the military during the early eighties). You know
anything more about this?

Brooks




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
news
Ed, when was Martin in LIFT? I saw a documentary recently on his dad, and
it
mentioned the son's accident. I had vague memories of it being in the news
when it happened, but found little on the web about his ANG experience.
Made
me kind of curious as to his story (not all that many sons of the rich and
famous saw fit to serve in the military during the early eighties). You
know
anything more about this?

Brooks


It was covered in a Dean Martin biography I read in the last couple of
years. Might check with the library and see what may have been published in
that period. I think it was written by one of the other kids.

Tex

Among some folks that I met at fighter lead-in training when I was
instructing were Dino Martin (Dean's son) who was killed flying an F-4
into a mountain in California, and Ross Perot (son of Ross Perot) who
flew F-4s for the TANG.

A C-119 retardant tanker later crashed virtually on the exact site as Martins
F-4C crash.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:18:12 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
Among some folks that I met at fighter lead-in training when I was
instructing were Dino Martin (Dean's son) who was killed flying an F-4
into a mountain in California, and Ross Perot (son of Ross Perot) who
flew F-4s for the TANG.

Ed, when was Martin in LIFT? I saw a documentary recently on his dad, and it
mentioned the son's accident. I had vague memories of it being in the news
when it happened, but found little on the web about his ANG experience. Made
me kind of curious as to his story (not all that many sons of the rich and
famous saw fit to serve in the military during the early eighties). You know
anything more about this?

Brooks

I was at LIFT from July '81 til June of '85. Dino came through in '83
and Perot in '84. Both were good guys with no attitude issues. Each
was fully qualified, no double standard involved.

Martin's accident occured during a radar trail departure in bad
weather out of March AFB (IIRC).


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:20:29 -0500, "Lawrence Dillard"
wrote:

Agreed, to a certain extent; I could have expressed myself somewhat more
clearly. GWB was *assigned* to ARF/ARPC in Oct. of 1972. ARF is the
location where Guard Members' *records* are sent for among other things,
disciplinary reasons. (My mistake, I was typing too quickly. I certainly
don't run an anti-GWB website, and had no intent to astonish anyone.) To
reiterate, "discipline" need not necessarily mean either brig time nor any
type of *physical restraint*. Apparently, there are some on this NG who do
understand that, for example,*probation* is a form of discipline (custody)
which does not involve restraint or incarceration. A JAG or Army equivalent
could explain.

I can't find anything official that being assigned to ARPC is some
type of mark against a persons record. Could you provide some official
source for that thought?

I did find this at the ARPC site, but nothing about it being some type
of punishment..

Air Reserve Personnel Center (ARPC)
"The Personnel Center’s mission expanded in the 1970s, when the Air
Force made ARPC responsible for all Air National Guard personnel
records. This action happened first for officers in July 1971, and
then for enlisted members in March 1978."

"Buzzer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:20:29 -0500, "Lawrence Dillard"
wrote:

Agreed, to a certain extent; I could have expressed myself somewhat more
clearly. GWB was *assigned* to ARF/ARPC in Oct. of 1972. ARF is the
location where Guard Members' *records* are sent for among other things,
disciplinary reasons. (My mistake, I was typing too quickly. I certainly
don't run an anti-GWB website, and had no intent to astonish anyone.) To
reiterate, "discipline" need not necessarily mean either brig time nor
any
type of *physical restraint*. Apparently, there are some on this NG who
do
understand that, for example,*probation* is a form of discipline
(custody)
which does not involve restraint or incarceration. A JAG or Army
equivalent
could explain.

I can't find anything official that being assigned to ARPC is some
type of mark against a persons record. Could you provide some official
source for that thought?

I did find this at the ARPC site, but nothing about it being some type
of punishment..
[... stuff deleted...]

I think what is happening is that folks are misinterpreting what was
meant by "assigned" to ARPC. Let's take a step back to look at this.

When you are in the military (Air Force, ANG, or AF Reserves in this
case), you have a local office that handles your personnel records, issues,
etc. Currently, that is referred to as a Military Personnel Flight (MPF --
for us old-timers, it used to be CBPO). When you leave the military, those
records are then transferred to another central location. You are
"assigned" (a.k.a handled by) a central office (in this case ARPC or AFPC)
as you no longer have a local MPF to work with. For folks in an inactive
reserve status, ARPC is the "assigned" MPF.

Mike

Was it that, as you relate, he "was no
longer available to attend" TANG meetings (but if so, was he nonetheless
accepting payment for his service-time?

You're just spinning facts into fantasy, and tricking it out with
innuendo. Bush received no payments after July 1973, his last day in
uniform.

Bush's Guard service was exemplary for three years, minimal for
another three. In my website I give him the same grade his Yale
professors did for his course work: a "gentleman's C" -- which in
today's university would translate to a B-plus.

There was nothing dishonorable about any of it. Sure, he got favorable
treatment, as any one of us would do if the opportunity arose. Yes, he
slacked off toward the end, but there were very good reasons for
that--the 111th FIS no longer fielded the plane he had trained to fly.

The facts, as many as are own, are all laid out he
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

Stop wasting our time with your double-talk about disciplinary units
in Denver. For my part, I'm giving you the old Control-K as of this
afternoon.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com