Lift - Newton/Bernoulli ratio...

On May 23, 4:40*am, Dave Doe wrote:
In article , , Private
says...











"Dave Doe" wrote in message
...
In article ,
, Mxsmanic says...

Dave Doe writes:

So a wing generates as much lift upside down? *

Absolutely..........without question! The EXACT same explanation of
lift creation is in play on an inverted wing as on the upright wing.
Applies to barn doors as well.
Newton= 100% Bernoulli= 100%.
Dudley Henriques

Dave Doe writes:

So a wing generates as much lift upside down?

Yes.

What I want, is half the difference between a wing up the right way, and
the wing up the wrong way. That is, I presume, the additional lifting
force from the Bernoulli effect vs a wing with a mirrored camber
(obtaining no lift due to the Bernoulli effect).

Camber does not produce lift. Angle of attack produces lift. A flat plank will
fly as long as it has a postive angle of attack, and it can do that
upside-down or right side up.

"Dave Doe" wrote in message
...
In article , er, Private
snip
Not interested in trolling. If you think I am, please do not reply, or
reply and say so,

Which is exactly what I did.

and I will do as such.

--
Duncan.

Recent experience has made all of us here somewhat cautious regarding the
motivation of others.

Dave Doe writes:

As said in other reply - not looking for a run-down on the physics -
looking for the *ratio* of lift obtained by each.

I said "all lift" in answer to this. In other words, Newton's third law
generates 100% of the lift.

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On May 22, 7:04*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave Doe writes:
Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

Actually, if I'm reading you right, I would rephrase this just a bit,
as it feeds into the problems we as instructors have in "re-
explaining" lift to students.
STRESSING either Newton or Bernoulli in the lift explanation causes
more than a modicum of confusion UNLESS it's done by including BOTH
theories in the explanation. You've done that actually. I would just
enhance things a bit more :-)
Read what Orval says above. He is absolutely correct. BOTH Newton and
Bernoulli are COMPLETE explanations for lift, which is interesting in
another respect, as neither man had lift in mind with their work.
The simple truth of it is that each explanation is totally correct and
is interchangeable with the other. Each explains the same thing
without relying on the other and BOTH are occurring simultaneously.
It's a common misconception that Bernoulli and Newton EACH contribute
INDIVIDUALLY to form a TOTAL of the lift produced. This explanation is
incorrect and should be discouraged.
When I dealt with the lift issue with instructors in seminar, my
personal approach was to favor the Newtonian explanation as in my
opinion student pilots can grasp Newton a lot easier than Bernoulli,
but I've ALWAYS made it habit NEVER to leave Bernoulli out in the
cold.
The correct way to deal with the lift issue is to explain to those
asking that BOTH explanations are complete by themselves, and Newton
might be the easier of the two to explain.
Dudley Henriques

In article 4f56d67d-f259-46e7-8e3f-
, ,
Dudley Henriques says...

On May 22, 7:04*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave Doe writes:
Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

Actually, if I'm reading you right, I would rephrase this just a bit,
as it feeds into the problems we as instructors have in "re-
explaining" lift to students.
STRESSING either Newton or Bernoulli in the lift explanation causes
more than a modicum of confusion UNLESS it's done by including BOTH
theories in the explanation. You've done that actually. I would just
enhance things a bit more :-)
Read what Orval says above. He is absolutely correct. BOTH Newton and
Bernoulli are COMPLETE explanations for lift, which is interesting in
another respect, as neither man had lift in mind with their work.
The simple truth of it is that each explanation is totally correct and
is interchangeable with the other. Each explains the same thing
without relying on the other and BOTH are occurring simultaneously.
It's a common misconception that Bernoulli and Newton EACH contribute
INDIVIDUALLY to form a TOTAL of the lift produced. This explanation is
incorrect and should be discouraged.

While it's true that the Bernoulli effect is part of Newtonian mechanics
- I want to know what the ratio of (gonna have to rephrase this aren't
I) is:
* an airfoil where the camber on both sides is equal and opposite
(mirroed)
vs
* an airfoil that is shaped to produce lift via Bernoulli effect.

When I dealt with the lift issue with instructors in seminar, my
personal approach was to favor the Newtonian explanation as in my
opinion student pilots can grasp Newton a lot easier than Bernoulli,
but I've ALWAYS made it habit NEVER to leave Bernoulli out in the
cold.
The correct way to deal with the lift issue is to explain to those
asking that BOTH explanations are complete by themselves, and Newton
might be the easier of the two to explain.
Dudley Henriques

I'll rephrase it a second time. What percentage of extra lift is gained
from:
a) a plank of wood (can only produce lift via angle of attack)
vs
b) a plank of wood that is an airfoil - and is getting lift from both
angle of attack and the Bernoulli effect.

I hope that is clearer.

Here are some articles - but they produce no data to show the
addidtional lift obtained by the Bernoulli effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(force)

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

And here is a third re-phrase...
* A yacht that has a sail made of unbendable stiff material
(will not point as high and go as fast as)...
* A yacht that has a sail of normal material and has an effective
airfoil shape and produces lift perpendicular to the sail (via the
Bernoulli effect).

Is it not a simple enough question? - I mean, really. While results
will undoubtably vary among plane types and airspeed - I'm just looking
for an approximate percentage.

Do read that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoil page!

And I don't want to get stuck on the pedantics of Newtonian physics
encompassing the Bernoulli effect - just really looking at, as said
(rephrase #4)...
- lift produced by an airfoil that has a mirrored camber top and bottom
(the zero lift line is the same as the chord line)
vs
- lift produced by a traditional airfoil

--
Duncan.

On May 23, 3:40*am, Dave Doe wrote:
In article 4f56d67d-f259-46e7-8e3f-
, ,
Dudley Henriques says...











On May 22, 7:04*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave Doe writes:
Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

Actually, if I'm reading you right, I would rephrase this just a bit,
as it feeds into the problems we as instructors have in "re-
explaining" lift to students.
STRESSING either Newton or Bernoulli in the lift explanation causes
more than a modicum of confusion UNLESS it's done by including BOTH
theories in the explanation. You've done that actually. I would just
enhance things a bit more :-)
Read what Orval says above. He is absolutely correct. BOTH Newton and
Bernoulli are COMPLETE explanations for lift, which is interesting in
another respect, as neither man had lift in mind with their work.
The simple truth of it is that each explanation is totally correct and
is interchangeable with the other. Each explains the same thing
without relying on the other and BOTH are occurring simultaneously.
It's a common misconception that Bernoulli and Newton EACH contribute
INDIVIDUALLY to form a TOTAL of the lift produced. This explanation is
incorrect and should be discouraged.

While it's true that the Bernoulli effect is part of Newtonian mechanics
- I want to know what the ratio of (gonna have to rephrase this aren't
I) is:
* an airfoil where the camber on both sides is equal and opposite
(mirroed)
vs
* an airfoil that is shaped to produce lift via Bernoulli effect.

When I dealt with the lift issue with instructors in seminar, my
personal approach was to favor the Newtonian explanation as in my
opinion student pilots can grasp Newton a lot easier than Bernoulli,
but I've ALWAYS made it habit NEVER to leave Bernoulli out in the
cold.
The correct way to deal with the lift issue is to explain to those
asking that BOTH explanations are complete by themselves, and Newton
might be the easier of the two to explain.
Dudley Henriques

I'll rephrase it a second time. *What percentage of extra lift is gained
from:
a) a plank of wood (can only produce lift via angle of attack)
vs
b) a plank of wood that is an airfoil - and is getting lift from both
angle of attack and the Bernoulli effect.

I hope that is clearer.

Here are some articles - but they produce no data to show the
addidtional lift obtained by the Bernoulli effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(force)

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

And here is a third re-phrase...
* A yacht that has a sail made of unbendable stiff material
(will not point as high and go as fast as)...
* A yacht that has a sail of normal material and has an effective
airfoil shape and produces lift perpendicular to the sail (via the
Bernoulli effect).

Is it not a simple enough question? - I mean, really. *While results
will undoubtably vary among plane types and airspeed - I'm just looking
for an approximate percentage.

Do read that:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoilpage!

And I don't want to get stuck on the pedantics of Newtonian physics
encompassing the Bernoulli effect - just really looking at, as said
(rephrase #4)...
- lift produced by an airfoil that has a mirrored camber top and bottom
(the zero lift line is the same as the chord line)
vs
- lift produced by a traditional airfoil

--
Duncan.

Simple. Newton 100% Bernoulli 100% There is no "extra lift" from
Bernoulli OR from Newton.
Both are EXACTLY equal and complete explanations for lift just
expressed differently. In other words, the total lift being produced
on either a barn door or the world's highest performance airfoil can
be explained to 100% EITHER by Newton OR by Bernoulli. It's ACTUALLY
that simple!
If you are trying to explain lift attributing any contribution to the
total lift being produced by either Bernoulli or Newton as being less
than 100% you are mistaken and using poor information.
There is simply not an instant in time when lift is being produced
where the explanation for the TOTAL lift being produced can't be shown
by EITHER a Bernoulli or a Newtonian explanation as both are equal and
total explanations of the SAME THING and are occurring SIMULTANEOUSLY!
Wikipedia serves a purpose I guess, but I prefer the Naval Test Pilot
School. I'm sure Wiki won't mind. :-))
Dudley Henriques

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Prodam credit card database - 130 000 lines in it, - mix countries - CA,US,DE,DENMARK,IT,UK,EST,LH,CZ, and other EU,+ TW,Thailand and other. Valid -5-30%.
Can show you through Team Viewer, can wor through Garant (escrow). Minimum order 5000 lines - price - 0,07$ per line. if order more than 10k lines then 0,05$ per line.
All base 130000 cc - 10000$ . Contacts email - skype:ccseller icq:603948540