Rumsfeld and flying

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/6/04 12:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

You served with honor. So did the SecDef. You had one situation, he
had another. Don't attempt to demean him or others to fit your agenda.
Or, at least if you do, then keep the ROE consistent.

Uhhh...Ed....let me introduce you to Art Kramer....


BUFDRVR


I think back to the days of my training in Texas. Every instructor we had was a
combat veteran who completed his tour of duty and came back to instruct. My
Bombing instructor was a veteran of 25 missions with the bloody 100th bomb
group. He flew them from England to Berlin without fighter escort taking
horrible losses. He not only tought us our basic job, but he let us know what
it acutually was like in combat and all during my tour of duty his training
resulted in the fact that there were no surprises for us in combat except
for the time we are attacked by an ME 262. I find it interesting that Rumsfeld
was an instructor who had never been to combat. I don't see that as a change
for the better in flight training.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:



WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting
war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.


Art, you post a lot of interesting things that I enjoy. If you are
referring to Rumsfeld, this seems a cheap shot. If he was an ASW driver,
he may have had just as much a role in avoiding shooting wars than a
BUFF driver.

My former father-in-law was a Naval aviator flying close air support
during Korea. During Viet Nam, however, I suppose you could say he "got
out of combat" since his assignments included service test pilot at
Wright-Patterson, Sixth Fleet duty, etc. For that matter, his later
flying career with RA5C's, so obviously he didn't shoot.

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 3/6/04 10:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

My former father-in-law was a Naval aviator flying close air support
during Korea. During Viet Nam, however, I suppose you could say he "got
out of combat" since his assignments included service test pilot at
Wright-Patterson, Sixth Fleet duty

He went to war and saw the elephant. He was one of us. Every thing after that
is gravy.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 3/6/04 10:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

My former father-in-law was a Naval aviator flying close air support
during Korea. During Viet Nam, however, I suppose you could say he "got
out of combat" since his assignments included service test pilot at
Wright-Patterson, Sixth Fleet duty

He went to war and saw the elephant. He was one of us. Every thing after
that
is gravy.


Oh, I agree he did, and had the nightmares to go with it. But that
wasn't my point. That he was on a combat platform during the Cold War
doesn't mean that he was avoiding combat. In like manner, I won't say
that a SAC pilot, on airborne alert for what would have been missions
against the fUSSR that would have had extremely high casualties, was
avoiding combat.

So how is Rumsfeld avoiding combat if he's flying ASW duty, but he and
his squadronmates were part of a strategic deterresnt against Communist
forces? ASW pilots that sank subs in WWII rarely were shot at in the
Atlantic theater -- the weather, distances and aircraft reliability were
far more an issue. So is attacking a submerged sub seeing the elephant?

I don't agree with Rumsfeld on every policy, but I have no reason to
think he doesn't have personal courage. On 9/11, his first response to
the impact was to try to run to the area and see if he could help in
rescue, and was quite properly pulled back from doing so, because
one-half of the NCA doesn't belong on the front line as multiple attacks
are happening.

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.

Go see if your welfare check has come in yet, and also ask the nurse for
a larger dose.

Good Luck!

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 3/6/04 10:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: cJo2c.10293$m4.2072@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting
war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.

Go see if your welfare check has come in yet, and also ask the nurse for
a larger dose.

Good Luck!


This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't. And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Now I'll ask the nurse for a larger dose and thanks for your good luck
wishes.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

This is a very emotional issue for me.

Obviously your emotions have overtaken your other bodily functions.

I think of absent friends who still lie in foreign graves.

Should have shipped them home. Most would have died on Route 66
anyway, as we didn't have seat belts back then.

Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't.

Rumsfeld ain't one of them. He was a Congressman, not a combat pilot.

And no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers
of men were equal

Rumsfeld wasn't a pilot during his Reserve Duty. I don't think he's flown
an aircraft since 1954.

On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't. And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:47:39 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

You might not have read the full bios. While he spent three years on
active duty, he then spent a full military career continuing to fly in
the Naval Reserves until retiring with the rank of Captain (O-6).


Ed Rasimus

I was aware that he had stayed in and retired as an O-6. I guess you didn't
notice that the lump in my cheek was caused by my tongue rather than a case
of
the mumps. Maybe I should have included my homemade smiley sign to signify
that
I didn't want my comments taken too seriously. (^-^)))

BTW, since you brought it up, don't you ever wonder how he got through the
entire Viet Nam War without any active service during it, considering how
much
of a warrior he turned out to be as a civilian? Most of the rest of us who
wanted to do our bit in uniform found ways to make it happen.

Is that your tongue again or do I smell a herring?

If you return to the bios, you'll note that upon graduation from NROTC
(pretty serious commitment and additionally indicative of getting a
college degree without some sort of inheritance or paternal
influence), he fulfilled his active duty commitment in the '50s (after
Korea, before SEA). He could then have drifted out of service upon
completion of ready reserve requirements, but he didn't.

He appears to have moved down a pretty impressive career path before
SEA heated up. The fact that he simultaneously maintained his reserve
qualifications is adequate for me.

If you will return to my comments, you will see that I never in any way found
fault with the fact that he was able to and did in fact pursue a complete
military career in the Reserve forces right up through retirement.

However, snide remarks about red herrings aside, this'd be the appropriate place
to repeat my question. Are you suggesting that a Navy 0-4 or 0-5 on flying
status during the period from say 1968 through 1975, who is as gung ho a
warrior as our present Sec/Def obviously is, could not have found a way to make
a more direct contribution to our war effort in Viet Nam if he had wanted to
than by staying current in the active Reserves? That suggestion is insulting to
the numerous Reserve and ANG fliers who managed to find their way into active
units committed to prosecuting that war, some of whom were undoubtedly in your
own unit at one time or another.

But, we can certainly find a lot of SecDefs on both sides of the
political spectrum without ANY spit-shined brogans in their
closet--dare I mention Les Aspin, Robert Strange McNamara, Robert
Cohen, etc?

Talk about red herrings. I see you're not reluctant to toss a few around when
it suits your purpose. By way of comparison, how many of those you just
mentioned were Reserve or ANG fliers on flying status during whatever wars they
were involved in supervising? That would be a valid comparison.....what you
just did was toss our a bunch of apples and dared us to compare them with an
orange. Not the same thing, and you know it.

George Z.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:38:43 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

If you return to the bios, you'll note that upon graduation from NROTC
(pretty serious commitment and additionally indicative of getting a
college degree without some sort of inheritance or paternal
influence), he fulfilled his active duty commitment in the '50s (after
Korea, before SEA). He could then have drifted out of service upon
completion of ready reserve requirements, but he didn't.

He appears to have moved down a pretty impressive career path before
SEA heated up. The fact that he simultaneously maintained his reserve
qualifications is adequate for me.

If you will return to my comments, you will see that I never in any way found
fault with the fact that he was able to and did in fact pursue a complete
military career in the Reserve forces right up through retirement.

However, snide remarks about red herrings aside, this'd be the appropriate place
to repeat my question. Are you suggesting that a Navy 0-4 or 0-5 on flying
status during the period from say 1968 through 1975, who is as gung ho a
warrior as our present Sec/Def obviously is, could not have found a way to make
a more direct contribution to our war effort in Viet Nam if he had wanted to
than by staying current in the active Reserves? That suggestion is insulting to
the numerous Reserve and ANG fliers who managed to find their way into active
units committed to prosecuting that war, some of whom were undoubtedly in your
own unit at one time or another.

So, S2F pilots are a critical resource and a Navy reservist who is
serving in Congress should resign his seat, request activation and go
drone around the boat. That simply doesn't make sense.

If you can serve in Congress and still meet Reserve qualifications you
are both contributing to the nation and helping the defense
establishment. Can't see how that's any sort of strike against the
man.

But, we can certainly find a lot of SecDefs on both sides of the
political spectrum without ANY spit-shined brogans in their
closet--dare I mention Les Aspin, Robert Strange McNamara, Robert
Cohen, etc?

Talk about red herrings. I see you're not reluctant to toss a few around when
it suits your purpose. By way of comparison, how many of those you just
mentioned were Reserve or ANG fliers on flying status during whatever wars they
were involved in supervising? That would be a valid comparison.....what you
just did was toss our a bunch of apples and dared us to compare them with an
orange. Not the same thing, and you know it.

My point was that if we are setting criteria for SecDefs, we should
acknowledge that a lot of folks held the job with absolutely no
military experience at all. None of those I just mentioned were
Reserve or ANG fliers, which was precisely my point.

It returns to the issue about whether there is a relationship between
active and reserve component service, between officer and enlisted
service, between peacetime and wartime service, between combat and
combat support service, between home base and deployed service, etc.
etc.

Some people got to see the elephant and some didn't. I was there
involuntarily the first time and got to see more of it than many, but
not as much as some. I was voluntarily there the second time, but will
quite honestly tell you that it wasn't about patriotism.

I've got no problem with people who served but didn't get to go
downtown. I do have a problem with people who aggressively avoided any
kind of service, with people who undermined their brothers-in-arms,
and with people who claim to be something that they are not. (Those
aren't all the same person in any of my statements.)


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8