Rumsfeld and flying

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:50:14 -0600, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"BUFDRVR" wrote

It's hard for me to believe that you cannot conceptualize that not everyone
during times of combat operations sees action. I've got several good friends
who, through no fault of their own, have exactly *zero* combat hours.

I used to fly with a navigator who had .5 combat hours. He got it on the way
to Thailand in a C-141 during the Vietnam war.

I was a passenger on a C-130 in 1967 that was suppose to fly from Ubon
to Okinawa and they pulled that trick. Plane landed and pulled onto
the taxiway and sat. I figured we had made really good time to
Okinawa. Crew chief put the steps out and came back and asked if I
wanted to get out and take a look around DaNang?
DANANG? DANANG, VIETNAM? What the are we doing here?
Crew needed to land so they could get their combat pay for the month..

It's just phenomenal the amount of **** in Art's brain.

Being an Instructor has very little to do with combat. Many combat vets
take awhile before they can become effective teachers. They tend to be
perfectionists, and are used to crews who are their peers. Once back at
the training center, the pace and mistakes cause them to wash students
out. We had one guy who washed his first three students out, and the
board reinstated all of them with a new instructor. The bad instructor
was sent packing.

Many combat vets
take awhile before they can become effective teachers

If we're speaking about the USAAF in WWII, some never made the
adjustment at all. The army found some men too nervous in the service
to be trusted as teachers. But still it was an inspired system.

Ed mentioned that "some countries" didn't follow this
combat-to-instructor rotation. Actually, I think that should be "no
other country" beside the U.S. The RAF may have done a bit of it,
without advertising it, but in most air forces you flew until you
died. The Germans were particularly egregious. Far from sending combat
pilots to teach, they sent instructors to combat (they did this in a
vain attempt to salvage Tunisia in 1943) thus depriving the air force
of the next generation of trained pilots.

Both Germany and Japan were sending men into combat by the end of the
war with fewer than 150 or even 100 hours of flying time.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
news

Many combat vets
take awhile before they can become effective teachers

If we're speaking about the USAAF in WWII, some never made the
adjustment at all. The army found some men too nervous in the service
to be trusted as teachers. But still it was an inspired system.

Ed mentioned that "some countries" didn't follow this
combat-to-instructor rotation. Actually, I think that should be "no
other country" beside the U.S. The RAF may have done a bit of it,
without advertising it,

The RAF did rather a lot of it

With bomber pilots for example crews who survived a tour
would go on leave then be posted to an Operational Training
Unit to pass their knowledge on to new crews. Fighter pilots
tended to follow the same path with quite a number being posted
to bases set up in Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand
under the Empire flight taining schemes

Keith

"D. Strang" wrote:

It's just phenomenal the amount of **** in Art's brain.

Even more phenomenal is that he always ends up getting all the
attention that he so desperately seeks. Just like Tarver, it doesn't
matter if the attention Kramer gets is good or bad attention, as long
as SOMEONE is paying attention to him!

Being an Instructor has very little to do with combat. Many combat vets
take awhile before they can become effective teachers. They tend to be
perfectionists, and are used to crews who are their peers. Once back at
the training center, the pace and mistakes cause them to wash students
out. We had one guy who washed his first three students out, and the
board reinstated all of them with a new instructor. The bad instructor
was sent packing.

Many outstanding golf instructors will never compete on the PGA level,
but guys like Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer or Tiger Woods would never
have become champions without the expert guidance and critiques from
their instructors.

An effective teacher doesn't necessarily have to have "been there
and done that."

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
"D. Strang" wrote:

It's just phenomenal the amount of **** in Art's brain.

Even more phenomenal is that he always ends up getting all the
attention that he so desperately seeks. Just like Tarver,

Why do you bring me into your childishness, Marron?

ArtKramr wrote:

I think back to the days of my training in Texas. Every instructor we had was a
combat veteran who completed his tour of duty and came back to instruct. My
Bombing instructor was a veteran of 25 missions with the bloody 100th bomb
group. He flew them from England to Berlin without fighter escort taking
horrible losses. He not only tought us our basic job, but he let us know what
it acutually was like in combat and all during my tour of duty his training
resulted in the fact that there were no surprises for us in combat except
for the time we are attacked by an ME 262. I find it interesting that Rumsfeld
was an instructor who had never been to combat. I don't see that as a change
for the better in flight training.

My father was an instructor with no combat experience.
I'm not certain what sort of instructor; basic I'd suppose.

He was all set to strap on a P-47 and destroy the LW single
handedly he once told me, but found to his great disappointment
that he'd been made an instructor!

As you have said, he too was afraid the war would be over by
the time he got there as it was, and now, he's saddled with
an instructors job!

Said he got a lecture by the CO saying how important good
instruction was, and that he would indeed be doing an
important part in destroying the LW.

He eventually converted to B-29s as a way to get to combat
in the Pacific, only to have that war end before he could
actually get there. "Bum luck" I guess.

Eventually got his "combat" experience in a sort of way.
Flying during the Berlin Airlift cost a lot of people their
lives flying very difficult weather and conditions. A few
bullet holes in his transport aircraft during Korea and
especially Vietnam (even to the French at Dien Bien Phu).
All the various "crises" of the Cold War (Suez crisis,
Libyan crisis, Lebanon crisis,...).

I can no longer quiz him on the details, and I probably
have some of them wrong, but although he'll never be a USAF
"combat veteran", it sure as hell wasn't through a lack of
effort on his part in trying! He simply followed the orders
that the USAF gave him. No wrangling, no "influence".

[Actually, after his death we got some of his official records
and there was a comment on some form stating "Congressional
influence" or something such as this.

This apparently dated from his original posting to Japan again
without the family being allowed to come. My mother broke
ranks with the AF and wrote her Congressman and Senator
claiming all his overseas posts were without family and it
was finally time for the family to be posted with him!

We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]


SMH

ubject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 3/7/04 5:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

I think back to the days of my training in Texas. Every instructor we had
was a
combat veteran who completed his tour of duty and came back to instruct. My
Bombing instructor was a veteran of 25 missions with the bloody 100th bomb
group. He flew them from England to Berlin without fighter escort taking
horrible losses. He not only tought us our basic job, but he let us know
what
it acutually was like in combat and all during my tour of duty his training
resulted in the fact that there were no surprises for us in combat
except
for the time we are attacked by an ME 262. I find it interesting that
Rumsfeld
was an instructor who had never been to combat. I don't see that as a
change
for the better in flight training.

My father was an instructor with no combat experience.
I'm not certain what sort of instructor; basic I'd suppose.

He was all set to strap on a P-47 and destroy the LW single
handedly he once told me, but found to his great disappointment
that he'd been made an instructor!

As you have said, he too was afraid the war would be over by
the time he got there as it was, and now, he's saddled with
an instructors job!

Said he got a lecture by the CO saying how important good
instruction was, and that he would indeed be doing an
important part in destroying the LW.

He eventually converted to B-29s as a way to get to combat
in the Pacific, only to have that war end before he could
actually get there. "Bum luck" I guess.

Eventually got his "combat" experience in a sort of way.
Flying during the Berlin Airlift cost a lot of people their
lives flying very difficult weather and conditions. A few
bullet holes in his transport aircraft during Korea and
especially Vietnam (even to the French at Dien Bien Phu).
All the various "crises" of the Cold War (Suez crisis,
Libyan crisis, Lebanon crisis,...).

I can no longer quiz him on the details, and I probably
have some of them wrong, but although he'll never be a USAF
"combat veteran", it sure as hell wasn't through a lack of
effort on his part in trying! He simply followed the orders
that the USAF gave him. No wrangling, no "influence".

[Actually, after his death we got some of his official records
and there was a comment on some form stating "Congressional
influence" or something such as this.

This apparently dated from his original posting to Japan again
without the family being allowed to come. My mother broke
ranks with the AF and wrote her Congressman and Senator
claiming all his overseas posts were without family and it
was finally time for the family to be posted with him!

We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]


SMH



Good post. Lets not confuse fine men like yoour father who did everything they
could to get in with men who never tried or even worked to avoid doing combat
duty. We had all too many of those. Obviously we can't say that every man wh
never saw combat because it was :no fault of their own: There were all too many
who never saw combat and it damn well was the fault of their deliberate
avoidance where possible. But your dad flew the Berlin airlift, I would say
that constitutes combat in every sense of the word. But to say that every man
who never saw combat really wanted to, but it was just bad luck that he didn't
is failing to deal with reality. There wer even many that used self inflicted
wounds to avoid combat or who feighned insanity or would marry any woman they
could get their hands on, ge her pregnant to avoid being called up. There were
those who signed up at colleges and universities to get delays in being
called up just to avoid combat. Avoiding combat was a minor industry that we
now refuse to look at and now cover up as not being "politically correct"


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Stephen Harding wrote:

We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]

Just out of curiosity, when were you there? I spent amost 4 years in Japan, the
last three of which were at Tachikawa.

George Z.

George Z. Bush wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote:


We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]


Just out of curiosity, when were you there? I spent amost 4 years in Japan, the
last three of which were at Tachikawa.

Yeah I remember you said you were there.

We were in Tachi from ? 1962 through August 1965. My Dad was
LtCol with the 22nd TCS flying the C-124. He retired on coming
home.


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote:
George Z. Bush wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote:


We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]


Just out of curiosity, when were you there? I spent amost 4 years in Japan,
the last three of which were at Tachikawa.

Yeah I remember you said you were there.

We were in Tachi from ? 1962 through August 1965. My Dad was
LtCol with the 22nd TCS flying the C-124. He retired on coming
home.

After my time. I was there from '51 through '55. I was with the 344th TCS, a
tenant outfit flying C-46s. The rest of my outfit were at Brady, down near
Fukuoka (Kyushu). We moved up to Tachi in Dec. '51, when the 124s were all
grounded due to inflight generator fires. For a while, our 46s and the 54
squadron were all there was available for intra-theater traffic in and out of
Tachi. The 344th deactivated in '55 and became a Flying Training Squadron which
eventually turned our aircraft over to the Japan Air Self Defense Force. We had
the distinction of being among the very few AF people in the world who ever flew
airplanes with the Rising Sun insignia on them.

Sorry if I've rambled.....thought you might be interested in some of the stuff
that happened before your time there.

George Z.


SMH