Flight Instruction: Then and Now

Exactly. Hell, just the takeoff, approach and landing were a major
challenge and I had several hundred flying hours by the time I got to B-52
FTU.

JB

What has been a concern since 2001 is that the FTU is doing mission
qualification training. When you graduate from the FTU, you are a "full up
round" and ready to go to war.......except our young EWs, Navs and Co-pilots
are stuggling with the basics and have no buisness being deployed. I flew with
a brand new FTU graduated co-pilot soon after the FTU-mission qual training
began, the guy had great knowledge about threats, great knowledge about B-52
capabilities against those threats, had a pretty good idea of what he wanted to
do with the jet on a bomb run.....but couldn't fly the jet to save his rear. He
had good ideas about what to do on the bomb run, but couldn't pull any of them
off. His pattern work was horrible and I left that night to go home wondering
how in God's name he passed his checkride. A few sorties later I flew with
another "newbie"...same story. Finally, one Friday afternoon, all the
instructors from my squadron (IPs, IRs & IEs) got togather, cracked open a few
beers and compared notes. Bottom line; due to the expansion of the FTU syllabus
to include mission qual training, with a non-linear expansion in number of
syllabus sorties (only added 2 sorties), crews were not getting a solid enough
foundation in the basics. 9/11 happened shortly after, and I was quite busy
until my PCS, but I still heard complaints, on nearly a daily basis.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: Flight Instruction: Then and Now
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/7/04 5:54 PM Pacific Standard Time

a brand new FTU graduated co-pilot soon after the FTU-mission qual training
began, the guy had great knowledge about threats, great knowledge about B-52
capabilities against those threats, had a pretty good idea of what he wanted
to
do with the jet on a bomb run.....

..but couldn't fly the jet to save his rear. He
had good ideas about what to do o

So what is new about that? Our co-pilot couldn't fly a B-26 to save his ass
when he came on board. Paul taught him on every flight. And pretty soon he
was quite good. When we switched from B-26's to A- 26's Bob got his own plane
and did fine from then on. I Guess on the job training is nothing new.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

..but couldn't fly the jet to save his rear.

So what is new about that?

Because nowadays you're expected to be able to do the basics coming out of
Formal Training. You're evaluation at the end of Formal Training consists (for
the co-pilot) of both a precision and non-precision approach, one missed
approach and a landing. This guy struggled with all of these.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: Flight Instruction: Then and Now
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/8/04 4:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

..but couldn't fly the jet to save his rear.

So what is new about that?

Because nowadays you're expected to be able to do the basics coming out of
Formal Training. You're evaluation at the end of Formal Training consists
(for
the co-pilot) of both a precision and non-precision approach, one missed
approach and a landing. This guy struggled with all of these.



Guess you guys had a lot more time for training than we did. The hotter the
war the faster you go into action. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Flight Instruction: Then and Now
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/8/04 4:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

..but couldn't fly the jet to save his rear.

So what is new about that?

Because nowadays you're expected to be able to do the basics coming out
of
Formal Training. You're evaluation at the end of Formal Training
consists
(for
the co-pilot) of both a precision and non-precision approach, one missed
approach and a landing. This guy struggled with all of these.



Guess you guys had a lot more time for training than we did. The hotter
the
war the faster you go into action. (sigh)



I'm not sure how you mean "better". One of the reasons that casualties
have been lower in recent US combat is the immense attention given to
training. That includes all levels, such as the Army BCTP program that
gives a reasonable idea how a general officer will perform under combat
conditions--perhaps there will be a few less McClellans, Fredendalls,
Lucases, Ghormleys, etc.

Combat will always be dangerous. But yes, there is much more training
now -- and a real belief that sweat shed in training is better than
blood shed in the real thing.Serious training spills blood as well.

Training and technology get more done with less people at the sharp end.
Art, I have no doubt in the valor of your squadron going after a bridge.
Consider what one modern aircraft with precision-guided penetrating
munitions could do today -- preferably by the dark of the moon, at an
altitude above light flak. That sort of things isn't going to provide
as many combat-experienced instructors.

Or consider how many combat crewmen actually flew over Baghdad in the
start of Desert Storm. Yes, the F-117 drivers, with EF-111's in support
a safer distance away. But were the Tomahawk shooters "combat crew" by
your definition? The drone operators tickling the air defense radars
into radiating, or the HARM shooters waiting some tens of miles away?
The AWACS crew?

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Exactly. Hell, just the takeoff, approach and landing were a major
challenge and I had several hundred flying hours by the time I got to
B-52
FTU.

JB

What has been a concern since 2001 is that the FTU is doing mission
qualification training. When you graduate from the FTU, you are a "full up
round" and ready to go to war.......except our young EWs, Navs and
Co-pilots
are stuggling with the basics and have no buisness being deployed. I flew
with
a brand new FTU graduated co-pilot soon after the FTU-mission qual
training
began, the guy had great knowledge about threats, great knowledge about
B-52
capabilities against those threats, had a pretty good idea of what he
wanted to
do with the jet on a bomb run.....but couldn't fly the jet to save his
rear. He
had good ideas about what to do on the bomb run, but couldn't pull any of
them
off. His pattern work was horrible and I left that night to go home
wondering
how in God's name he passed his checkride. A few sorties later I flew with
another "newbie"...same story. Finally, one Friday afternoon, all the
instructors from my squadron (IPs, IRs & IEs) got togather, cracked open a
few
beers and compared notes. Bottom line; due to the expansion of the FTU
syllabus
to include mission qual training, with a non-linear expansion in number of
syllabus sorties (only added 2 sorties), crews were not getting a solid
enough
foundation in the basics. 9/11 happened shortly after, and I was quite
busy
until my PCS, but I still heard complaints, on nearly a daily basis.


BUFDRVR

Well, I can understand that in a Buff. It is a very difficult plane to
learn to fly well, especially in the pattern. I assume the same training is
going on in the Bone FTU. The idea was kicked around when I was the
28BS/DO, but we let it die. It takes time to train a guy to be fully
mission qual, even with several sorties in the squadron. To try to do it in
the FTU with 2 sorties is ludicrous. It's probably easier in the Bone
because it isn't hard to learn how to fly, but it still is not a good
utilization of those two sorties. You can't do it properly with two
sorties. That was always a problem for me with the AF. To make a mark, get
something unique on your OER, something has to change on your watch. Often
the change is for change sake with no appreciable gain. It's just BS. I
enjoyed my time in the USAF, it was personally and professionally rewarding,
but I was glad to leave some of the really stupid things we did behind. I
turned down a slot to NWC before I left...the YGBSMs were deafening, (from
the Wing, to 8th, and up to NDU) but I'd had a good career, and enough of a
career. I haven't regretted the career or the final decision.

Cheers,

JB

Jim Baker wrote:
Well, I can understand that in a Buff. It is a very difficult plane to
learn to fly well, especially in the pattern. I assume the same training is
going on in the Bone FTU. The idea was kicked around when I was the
28BS/DO, but we let it die. It takes time to train a guy to be fully
mission qual, even with several sorties in the squadron. To try to do it in
the FTU with 2 sorties is ludicrous. It's probably easier in the Bone
because it isn't hard to learn how to fly, but it still is not a good
utilization of those two sorties. You can't do it properly with two
sorties. That was always a problem for me with the AF. To make a mark, get
something unique on your OER, something has to change on your watch. Often
the change is for change sake with no appreciable gain. It's just BS. I
enjoyed my time in the USAF, it was personally and professionally rewarding,
but I was glad to leave some of the really stupid things we did behind. I
turned down a slot to NWC before I left...the YGBSMs were deafening, (from
the Wing, to 8th, and up to NDU) but I'd had a good career, and enough of a
career. I haven't regretted the career or the final decision.

Jim,

IIRC the Bones still do it the old way with the new copilots coming out
of the FTU with a BMC rating. They still have to upgrade to CMR before
we'll take them to combat. They have actually cut the number of sorties
now that the nuc mission has gone away and so they can reduce the
backlog for the FTU. Of course now you have the bomb squadrons 150%
manned with copilots.

Michael Kelly
Bone Maintainer

Cheers,

JB

Jim,

IIRC the Bones still do it the old way with the new copilots coming out
of the FTU with a BMC rating. They still have to upgrade to CMR before
we'll take them to combat.

I don't think so. ACC demanded that both bomber FTUs produce FMC initial qual
and upgrade crewmembers. We fought them off for over a year, but when the 28th
BS decided they could do it, the 11th BS (B-52 FTU) was forced to follow.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR wrote:
I don't think so. ACC demanded that both bomber FTUs produce FMC initial qual
and upgrade crewmembers. We fought them off for over a year, but when the 28th
BS decided they could do it, the 11th BS (B-52 FTU) was forced to follow.

BUFDRVR,

Not trying to be argumentative, but just finished talking to my next
door neighbor who completed his check ride today. He finished only his
BMC and still has another 2-3 months of training with the 34th before
they will consider him CMR. I lived this problem for a year as one of
the maintenance officers for the 9th. It was an absolute fight to
provide enough sorties to keep the overmanned copilots from regressing.
Throw in upgrades it was tough. Even when we had the highest ever FMC
rate for the Bone.

Big of the problem was that our FTU got so backed up that we had to cut
down the syllabus and fly weekends to get caught up. All this did was
to push the problem on to the combat squadrons.

Cheers,
Michael Kelly, Bone Maintainer


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

I assume the same training is
going on in the Bone FTU.

The Bone FTU caved in before the BUFF FTU. Once one bomber caved in to ACC, the
other one (in this case the BUFF) didn't have a leg to stand on.

It takes time to train a guy to be fully
mission qual, even with several sorties in the squadron. To try to do it in
the FTU with 2 sorties is ludicrous.

Well, its not like they crunch everything in to 2 sorties, your mission
qualification training takes place throughout the entire syllabus. 2 sorties
were added because the mission qualification training events required basically
couldn't be done with the old 12 ride syllabus.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"