Instructors: is no combat better?

(ArtKramr) wrote:
"Tony Volk" wrote:

I've been biting my tongue for a long, long time now, but I feel that
this is perhaps the right time to finally post a reply to Art Kramer. My
grandfather was a pilot in the RCAF since the 1920's. He flew everything
from Camels to Spitfires to even co-piloting a BUFF (yup, it's in his log
book!). He was a good enough pilot to gain recognition from Billy Bishop
with regards to his flying (have a great photo of the two of them together).
He ended up being a wing commander before he retired, shortly after which he
had a fatal heart-attack. I never had the chance to meet him.
During W.W.II, he didn't see a lick of action because he was in such
demand as a flight instructor. You might think he was a coward for doing
so, but from his bush-piloting days, I am quite certain that he did not
suffer from a lack of courage (probably the opposite!). To get to the point
of this thread, training pilots (for W.W.II), one of our more treasured
family possessions are the *stacks* of letters he has from the RCAF and RAF
pilots that he trained, and their crediting their survival in the skies over
Europe to his training. My uncle was briefly in the RCAF and has verified
some of these stories personally (my grandfather never bragged or even spoke
much about his work). I can also tell you that he had the complete respect
of every single person who wrote him a letter, as well as numerous other
veterans who simply knew him as an excellent pilot and serviceman.
So while I can't give you much proof about whether combat instructors
are better than non-combat instructor, I can offer you proof that many
pilots thought at least one non-combat instructor was (to quote one letter)
"worth [his] weight in gold". Regards,

Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your story
without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that.

Er um, you must've missed it while reading the white spaces:

"You might think he was a coward for doing so, but from his
bush-piloting days, I am quite certain that he did not suffer from
a lack of courage (probably the opposite!)."

In other words, Kramer, allow me to spell it out for ya. What the
poster is alluding to above is that bush pilots are among the
thousands of brave aviators whom you have categorically insulted
as "cowards."

Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your
story
without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that.
In other words, Kramer, allow me to spell it out for ya. What the
poster is alluding to above is that bush pilots are among the
thousands of brave aviators whom you have categorically insulted
as "cowards."

I'll put it in my own words. Art, I sincerely respect and appreciate
the sacrifice you made for freedom. I literally get Goosebumps thinking
about the sacrifice of W.W.II veterans. But I feel the same way about some
other vets from other wars, and for people who've stood up to injustice, and
for children who've blossomed despite mistreatment, to parents who
sacrificed everything for their children's welfare, and to people who are
devoted to helping others. Indeed, the most heroic people I've ever heard
about were NOT combat vets (just about every religious figure comes to mind
as examples, and I think children and mothers have shown me the greatest
courage). Combat is only one test of men, and an imperfect one at that.
I'll stop preaching about now, as I don't have all the answers, and I'm
not a combat veteran myself (although I have put my life in harm's way for
others). The point of my post was: a) to mention that in WWII, non-combat
instructors were highly valued in some instances (talking to my father
tonight, he said my granddad Lancasters later in the war, fighters earlier-
my granddad could really fly 'em all!!), b) through his years of service my
grandfather made a courageous and valuable contribution to the freedom of
the world, and c) Art, if you truly believe that heroism isn't limited to
combat, you might want to examine the kind of language you use (e.g., the
respect for a non-combat instructor). There was no flame, sarcasm or insult
designed into my post, only a desire to illustrate that you don't have to
serve in combat to show courage deserving of, and receiving, respect. In my
limited opinion, courage is neither necessarily required for or equated with
combat service (the type-writer guy in Saving Private Ryan serves as a
fictitious example). Sincerely,

Tony

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?

--cut--

From: "Tony Volk" I can offer you proof that many
pilots thought at least one non-combat instructor was (to quote one letter)
"worth [his] weight in gold". Regards,

Tony Volk


Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your story
without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that.

Arthur Kramer


Art, have you noticed the large number of credible posters who
seem to be opposing you here?...doesn't it give you pause?...I
think that it should. It's quite likely that they're not all
wrong and that you're right. You probably should rethink your
position.
--

-Gord.

Fascinating psychosis at work here . . .

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Tony Volk"
Date: 3/9/04 12:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Except that not much of it applies to WW II.

I've been biting my tongue for a long, long time now, but I feel that
this is perhaps the right time to finally post a reply to Art Kramer. My
grandfather was a pilot in the RCAF since the 1920's. He flew everything
from Camels to Spitfires to even co-piloting a BUFF (yup, it's in his log
book!). He was a good enough pilot to gain recognition from Billy Bishop
with regards to his flying (have a great photo of the two of them
together).
He ended up being a wing commander before he retired, shortly after which
he
had a fatal heart-attack. I never had the chance to meet him.
During W.W.II, he didn't see a lick of action because he was in such
demand as a flight instructor. You might think he was a coward for doing
so, but from his bush-piloting days, I am quite certain that he did not
suffer from a lack of courage (probably the opposite!). To get to the
point
of this thread, training pilots (for W.W.II), one of our more treasured
family possessions are the *stacks* of letters he has from the RCAF and
RAF
pilots that he trained, and their crediting their survival in the skies
over
Europe to his training. My uncle was briefly in the RCAF and has
verified
some of these stories personally (my grandfather never bragged or even
spoke
much about his work). I can also tell you that he had the complete
respect
of every single person who wrote him a letter, as well as numerous other
veterans who simply knew him as an excellent pilot and serviceman.
So while I can't give you much proof about whether combat instructors
are better than non-combat instructor, I can offer you proof that many
pilots thought at least one non-combat instructor was (to quote one
letter)
"worth [his] weight in gold". Regards,

Tony Volk


Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your
story
without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer