Crunch Alert (USA) - hugely serious but (apparently) non-fatal

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:43:53 AM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
I've often wondered about the amount of altitude loss that occurs when exiting an aircraft in distress. Here it was about 1,500 feet in what would seem to be ideal circumstances - inverted (I have no idea what part centrifugal force was playing in this case).

Doesn't bode well for someone in a deep cockpit in an upright attitude. Maybe it's time to look seriously at DG's NOAH system...

-John

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:42:52 AM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:
Reportedly, the problem occurred at about 5,000 ft AGL and the aircraft inverted and entered a flat spin. Angel departed the aircraft about 3,500 to 3,800 feet AGL.

Mike

John,

I watched a number of pilots trying to get out of their gliders at Perry on the ground. Between an excess of personal ballast and declining muscle strength, I'd be willing to bet half of them could never get out with any increased lateral or positive, vertical loading.

Related to this, I'm curious why static lines aren't prevalent in the US. It seems all of the European made gliders have a provision for the static line. Any of our Euro friends care to illuminate us on whether use of static lines is common there?

At 11:03 01 May 2012, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2012 4:21:08 PM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:
From Albuquerque Soaring web site...
=20
"Per Billy Hill this evening: today Angel Pala was thermalling with
Billy=
in the area north of Moriarty and south of Lamy when he heard a loud
bang,=
and lost rudder authority (both pedals fell full forward). Evidently the
g=
lider behaved like full right rudder. Shortly thereafter the glider
entered=
an inverted spin, and Angel wisely decided he should walk home, and so
hit=
the silk. He landed under parachute, and hiked out, and was taken to a
hos=
pital in Santa Fe. He seems to be fine and Billy expects to pick him up
whe=
n he is released from hospital.
=20
Mike

What was the altitude AGL ?
Where is the JS1 rudder vented ?

Sure lucky it ended OK for the pilot !
Best Regards, Dave

I am surprised that the rudder went full over, and slip would not center
it
Rudder vent?
Does not the JS-1 have an extractor dorsal vent?
WE should test controlability with feet off!
John Firth

On Tue, 01 May 2012 20:01:19 +0000, John Firth wrote:

I am surprised that the rudder went full over, and slip would not
center it

I don't think I am, but this would depend on the seating geometry. I've
never seen a JS-1 so have no idea about its seating arrangements.

Here's the general idea. If you fly with knees raised you'll always have
some pressure on the pedals, so if the rudder cable snaps, both pedals
will go forward as described and you'll get full rudder toward the
unbroken cable side.

To let the rudder straighten out it will be necessary to get your feet
off the pedals and keep them off. In some gliders, particularly those
with flat floors, e.g. Discus 1, ASW-19,20 and Pegase, you can probably
pull your knees up and put your feet flat on the floor with your toes
resting against the pedal hinge bar if necessary. In a DG-300 you can
probably pull your knees toward you with your lower legs and heels
resting on the 'shelf' behind the pedals. However, in other gliders where
you fly with raised knees there are problems. If there isn't the space to
put your feet flat on the floor behind the pedal hinges this will be
extremely tiring after the first 5-10 minutes. Would it be possible at
all in an LS7 or 8? I have no idea if there's any foot room between the
front of the under-knee hump and the pedal pivots in these gliders.

WE should test controlability with feet off!

And also see if its possible to take your feet entirely off the pedals
and keep them off for the time it will take to pick a field, lose height,
fly a circuit and land. If this requires holding your legs and/or feet in
the air, can you do that long enough to land the glider without the
effort of doing it being totally distracting?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_5_]

On Tue, 01 May 2012 20:01:19 +0000, John Firth wrote:

I am surprised that the rudder went full over, and slip would not
center it

I don't think I am, but this would depend on the seating geometry. I've
never seen a JS-1 so have no idea about its seating arrangements.

Here's the general idea. If you fly with knees raised you'll always have
some pressure on the pedals, so if the rudder cable snaps, both pedals
will go forward as described and you'll get full rudder toward the
unbroken cable side.

To let the rudder straighten out it will be necessary to get your feet
off the pedals and keep them off. In some gliders, particularly those
with flat floors, e.g. Discus 1, ASW-19,20 and Pegase, you can probably
pull your knees up and put your feet flat on the floor with your toes
resting against the pedal hinge bar if necessary. In a DG-300 you can
probably pull your knees toward you with your lower legs and heels
resting on the 'shelf' behind the pedals. However, in other gliders where
you fly with raised knees there are problems. If there isn't the space to
put your feet flat on the floor behind the pedal hinges this will be
extremely tiring after the first 5-10 minutes. Would it be possible at
all in an LS7 or 8? I have no idea if there's any foot room between the
front of the under-knee hump and the pedal pivots in these gliders.

WE should test controlability with feet off!

And also see if its possible to take your feet entirely off the pedals
and keep them off for the time it will take to pick a field, lose height,
fly a circuit and land. If this requires holding your legs and/or feet in
the air, can you do that long enough to land the glider without the
effort of doing it being totally distracting?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Pulling your feet off the pedals will make little difference in most modern gliders as the pedals have springs on them to keep some tension on the cables. A guy in my club had a rudder cable let go in his Discus B some years ago and had the rudder go hard over. He spun, came out in a spiral dive tried to see how slow it was controllable, spun it again recovering too low to bail out so landed out with plenty of speed in a semi controlled fashion. Blew the tire and walked away

In January 2009 a Lak 12 had a rudder cable break while flying at Omarama. The pilot in this case had the rudder go over but was able to maintain a slipping turn down to a landout. Glider was crunched in a fence but pilot walked away.

It would appear the rudder will go over and if you resort to a slipping turn the rudder will stream more to the side the spring is pulling it towards

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:01:19 PM UTC-4, John Firth wrote:
Rudder vent?

Hole in the rudder to equalize internal pressure.
Sounds like this was NOT the problem here, but
it wouldn't be the first control surface to explode.

Nearly all gliders have strong springs on the rudder pedals which
tension the cables. A rudder cable failure will result in the rudder
going over to the other side and there is nothing you can do with your
feet to prevent this (unless you can hook your foot under the pedal on
the unbroken side and pull it forward).

Basil

On Tue, 01 May 2012 20:01:19 +0000, John Firth wrote:

At 11:03 01 May 2012, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2012 4:21:08 PM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:
From Albuquerque Soaring web site...
=20
"Per Billy Hill this evening: today Angel Pala was thermalling with
Billy=
in the area north of Moriarty and south of Lamy when he heard a loud
bang,=
and lost rudder authority (both pedals fell full forward). Evidently the
g=
lider behaved like full right rudder. Shortly thereafter the glider
entered=
an inverted spin, and Angel wisely decided he should walk home, and so
hit=
the silk. He landed under parachute, and hiked out, and was taken to a
hos=
pital in Santa Fe. He seems to be fine and Billy expects to pick him up
whe=
n he is released from hospital.
=20
Mike

What was the altitude AGL ?
Where is the JS1 rudder vented ?

Sure lucky it ended OK for the pilot !
Best Regards, Dave

I am surprised that the rudder went full over, and slip would not center
it
Rudder vent?
Does not the JS-1 have an extractor dorsal vent?
WE should test controlability with feet off!
John Firth

On Thursday, May 3, 2012 11:27:50 PM UTC-7, Eric wrote:
Nearly all gliders have strong springs on the rudder pedals which
tension the cables. A rudder cable failure will result in the rudder
going over to the other side and there is nothing you can do with your
feet to prevent this (unless you can hook your foot under the pedal on
the unbroken side and pull it forward).

Basil

On Tue, 01 May 2012 20:01:19 +0000, John Firth wrote:

At 11:03 01 May 2012, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2012 4:21:08 PM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:
From Albuquerque Soaring web site...
=20
"Per Billy Hill this evening: today Angel Pala was thermalling with
Billy=
in the area north of Moriarty and south of Lamy when he heard a loud
bang,=
and lost rudder authority (both pedals fell full forward). Evidently the
g=
lider behaved like full right rudder. Shortly thereafter the glider
entered=
an inverted spin, and Angel wisely decided he should walk home, and so
hit=
the silk. He landed under parachute, and hiked out, and was taken to a
hos=
pital in Santa Fe. He seems to be fine and Billy expects to pick him up
whe=
n he is released from hospital.
=20
Mike

What was the altitude AGL ?
Where is the JS1 rudder vented ?

Sure lucky it ended OK for the pilot !
Best Regards, Dave

I am surprised that the rudder went full over, and slip would not center
it
Rudder vent?
Does not the JS-1 have an extractor dorsal vent?
WE should test controlability with feet off!
John Firth

One must wonder why, and if there was no safer way to design the rudder pedals mechanism so it wouldn't aggravate the situation in a case of cable break.

Ramy

I spoke to Angel Pala this morning. I have been asked to clear up some
misconceptions and incorrect assumptions floating around.

Angel reported that he was thermalling northeast of Moriarty at around
11,300 msl. He was pushing on the rudder pedals (probably fairly hard
as we do occasionally in strong conditions) when there was a "snap"
and both rudder pedals went forward on the adjustment/positioning rod.
He attempted to pull them back using the adjustment cable, but there
was no tension felt, either on the spring or the rudder slider. The
aircraft rudder deflected and put the glider into a right turn. THERE
WAS NO "INVERTED FLAT SPIN" as previously reported. The glider started
descending in a right turn. Angel attempted to control the turn by
using opposite aileron (slip) but control was insufficient to maintain
direction.

Terrain below was far too rugged to attempt to land with minimal
control, so he decided to exit the aircraft with plenty of altitude.
Angel is a U.S. Army Special Forces veteran with Jumpmaster
qualifications and 90+ jumps, so he wasn't exactly unfamiliar with
parachuting under stressful conditions. He mistakenly disconnected his
seat belts prior to jettisoning the canopy, and was outside looking in
very quickly. He described "floating along next to his aircraft" as a
very weird "surreal" feeling. The glider maintained a fairly flat
right turn as Angel pulled the ripcord. His chute, a ParaPhernalia
"Softie" had been repacked at the factory only a month prior to the
incident. He said the D-ring only extended a few inches before the
canopy deployed from the container. The opening was "heavier" than he
expected (i.e., very rapid) with a harsh opening shock. Angel said
that the opening was so quick tthat a 400 ft. altitude would have been
sufficient, and this is from one who had experience with HALO (High
Altitude Low Opening) jumps.

As he descended under canopy, he had difficulty reaching the steering
toggles. Whether their position was out of reach due to misadjustment
of the harness or the air stream had taken them off their stowed
position has not been determined. Angel used the risers to effect some
directional control. He was able to observe that the glider continued
to the ground in a stable, flat right turn. It impacted the ground
"relatively intact" as he described it. He even heard the impact
before he landed himself.

Realiozing that he would have to hike out, Angel concentrated on
protecting his lower extremities as much as possible, electing to land
in a relaxed PLF rather than attempt to run out the landing. Windy
conditions dragged him briefly before he was able to collapse the
canopy and release the harness. He gathered the canopy and hiked four
miles before getting a ride directly to a hospital in Santa Fe. He
called several people at Moriarty to give basic "I'm OK" messages. He
told me today with some chagrin that his "SPOT" messenger is safe in
his hangar.

He underwent an MRI and other tests, spent the night and was released
on Monday. Billy Hill picked him up and took him back to his home in
Taos. Injuries were relatively minor, with substantial bruising and
some tendon strain to his left shoulder, cuts and scrapes and some
mouth cuts, but he will make a full recovery.

Knowing Angel's sense of humor, we just had to ask some "sensitive"
questions. He reports that a normal catheter stays on, but will fail
under tension loads at the outlet. Good to know.

The FAA and NTSB have been notified and investigations are underway.
The glider will most likely be removed by a professional aircraft
recovery company. It may need to be removed by helcopter to a place
nearby with road access, as there isn't a way to get a vehicle and
trailer to the site. One Sheriff's Deputy who reached the site said
there is about a 75-100 foot bluff between the glider and the nearest
road. He described the trek up the bluff as "a real hump."

Once the aircraft has been recovered and inspected, more information
about the cause of the accident will be released. Until then, it is
inadvisable to speculate.

The Jonker representative and the factory have been in contact with
Angel, and there are no recriminations. Leo Bennetti-Longhini reprts
that Angel is being a true gentleman about the situation and Jonker
will do whatever is needed to identify the cause and effect a
solution. JS-1 owners have been notified of the situation.

OUTSTANDING description, Mark. Kudos for Angel's description and your
reporting!


"Mark Mocho" wrote in message
...
I spoke to Angel Pala this morning. I have been asked to clear up some
misconceptions and incorrect assumptions floating around.

Angel reported that he was thermalling northeast of Moriarty at around
11,300 msl. He was pushing on the rudder pedals (probably fairly hard
as we do occasionally in strong conditions) when there was a "snap"
and both rudder pedals went forward on the adjustment/positioning rod.
He attempted to pull them back using the adjustment cable, but there
was no tension felt, either on the spring or the rudder slider. The
aircraft rudder deflected and put the glider into a right turn. THERE
WAS NO "INVERTED FLAT SPIN" as previously reported. The glider started
descending in a right turn. Angel attempted to control the turn by
using opposite aileron (slip) but control was insufficient to maintain
direction.

Terrain below was far too rugged to attempt to land with minimal
control, so he decided to exit the aircraft with plenty of altitude.
Angel is a U.S. Army Special Forces veteran with Jumpmaster
qualifications and 90+ jumps, so he wasn't exactly unfamiliar with
parachuting under stressful conditions. He mistakenly disconnected his
seat belts prior to jettisoning the canopy, and was outside looking in
very quickly. He described "floating along next to his aircraft" as a
very weird "surreal" feeling. The glider maintained a fairly flat
right turn as Angel pulled the ripcord. His chute, a ParaPhernalia
"Softie" had been repacked at the factory only a month prior to the
incident. He said the D-ring only extended a few inches before the
canopy deployed from the container. The opening was "heavier" than he
expected (i.e., very rapid) with a harsh opening shock. Angel said
that the opening was so quick tthat a 400 ft. altitude would have been
sufficient, and this is from one who had experience with HALO (High
Altitude Low Opening) jumps.

As he descended under canopy, he had difficulty reaching the steering
toggles. Whether their position was out of reach due to misadjustment
of the harness or the air stream had taken them off their stowed
position has not been determined. Angel used the risers to effect some
directional control. He was able to observe that the glider continued
to the ground in a stable, flat right turn. It impacted the ground
"relatively intact" as he described it. He even heard the impact
before he landed himself.

Realiozing that he would have to hike out, Angel concentrated on
protecting his lower extremities as much as possible, electing to land
in a relaxed PLF rather than attempt to run out the landing. Windy
conditions dragged him briefly before he was able to collapse the
canopy and release the harness. He gathered the canopy and hiked four
miles before getting a ride directly to a hospital in Santa Fe. He
called several people at Moriarty to give basic "I'm OK" messages. He
told me today with some chagrin that his "SPOT" messenger is safe in
his hangar.

He underwent an MRI and other tests, spent the night and was released
on Monday. Billy Hill picked him up and took him back to his home in
Taos. Injuries were relatively minor, with substantial bruising and
some tendon strain to his left shoulder, cuts and scrapes and some
mouth cuts, but he will make a full recovery.

Knowing Angel's sense of humor, we just had to ask some "sensitive"
questions. He reports that a normal catheter stays on, but will fail
under tension loads at the outlet. Good to know.

The FAA and NTSB have been notified and investigations are underway.
The glider will most likely be removed by a professional aircraft
recovery company. It may need to be removed by helcopter to a place
nearby with road access, as there isn't a way to get a vehicle and
trailer to the site. One Sheriff's Deputy who reached the site said
there is about a 75-100 foot bluff between the glider and the nearest
road. He described the trek up the bluff as "a real hump."

Once the aircraft has been recovered and inspected, more information
about the cause of the accident will be released. Until then, it is
inadvisable to speculate.

The Jonker representative and the factory have been in contact with
Angel, and there are no recriminations. Leo Bennetti-Longhini reprts
that Angel is being a true gentleman about the situation and Jonker
will do whatever is needed to identify the cause and effect a
solution. JS-1 owners have been notified of the situation.

On Wednesday, May 2, 2012 7:24:51 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
OUTSTANDING description, Mark. Kudos for Angel's description and your
reporting!


"Mark Mocho" wrote in message
...
I spoke to Angel Pala this morning. I have been asked to clear up some
misconceptions and incorrect assumptions floating around.

Angel reported that he was thermalling northeast of Moriarty at around
11,300 msl. He was pushing on the rudder pedals (probably fairly hard
as we do occasionally in strong conditions) when there was a "snap"
and both rudder pedals went forward on the adjustment/positioning rod.
He attempted to pull them back using the adjustment cable, but there
was no tension felt, either on the spring or the rudder slider. The
aircraft rudder deflected and put the glider into a right turn. THERE
WAS NO "INVERTED FLAT SPIN" as previously reported. The glider started
descending in a right turn. Angel attempted to control the turn by
using opposite aileron (slip) but control was insufficient to maintain
direction.

Terrain below was far too rugged to attempt to land with minimal
control, so he decided to exit the aircraft with plenty of altitude.
Angel is a U.S. Army Special Forces veteran with Jumpmaster
qualifications and 90+ jumps, so he wasn't exactly unfamiliar with
parachuting under stressful conditions. He mistakenly disconnected his
seat belts prior to jettisoning the canopy, and was outside looking in
very quickly. He described "floating along next to his aircraft" as a
very weird "surreal" feeling. The glider maintained a fairly flat
right turn as Angel pulled the ripcord. His chute, a ParaPhernalia
"Softie" had been repacked at the factory only a month prior to the
incident. He said the D-ring only extended a few inches before the
canopy deployed from the container. The opening was "heavier" than he
expected (i.e., very rapid) with a harsh opening shock. Angel said
that the opening was so quick tthat a 400 ft. altitude would have been
sufficient, and this is from one who had experience with HALO (High
Altitude Low Opening) jumps.

As he descended under canopy, he had difficulty reaching the steering
toggles. Whether their position was out of reach due to misadjustment
of the harness or the air stream had taken them off their stowed
position has not been determined. Angel used the risers to effect some
directional control. He was able to observe that the glider continued
to the ground in a stable, flat right turn. It impacted the ground
"relatively intact" as he described it. He even heard the impact
before he landed himself.

Realiozing that he would have to hike out, Angel concentrated on
protecting his lower extremities as much as possible, electing to land
in a relaxed PLF rather than attempt to run out the landing. Windy
conditions dragged him briefly before he was able to collapse the
canopy and release the harness. He gathered the canopy and hiked four
miles before getting a ride directly to a hospital in Santa Fe. He
called several people at Moriarty to give basic "I'm OK" messages. He
told me today with some chagrin that his "SPOT" messenger is safe in
his hangar.

He underwent an MRI and other tests, spent the night and was released
on Monday. Billy Hill picked him up and took him back to his home in
Taos. Injuries were relatively minor, with substantial bruising and
some tendon strain to his left shoulder, cuts and scrapes and some
mouth cuts, but he will make a full recovery.

Knowing Angel's sense of humor, we just had to ask some "sensitive"
questions. He reports that a normal catheter stays on, but will fail
under tension loads at the outlet. Good to know.

The FAA and NTSB have been notified and investigations are underway.
The glider will most likely be removed by a professional aircraft
recovery company. It may need to be removed by helcopter to a place
nearby with road access, as there isn't a way to get a vehicle and
trailer to the site. One Sheriff's Deputy who reached the site said
there is about a 75-100 foot bluff between the glider and the nearest
road. He described the trek up the bluff as "a real hump."

Once the aircraft has been recovered and inspected, more information
about the cause of the accident will be released. Until then, it is
inadvisable to speculate.

The Jonker representative and the factory have been in contact with
Angel, and there are no recriminations. Leo Bennetti-Longhini reprts
that Angel is being a true gentleman about the situation and Jonker
will do whatever is needed to identify the cause and effect a
solution. JS-1 owners have been notified of the situation.

I second that. This is the kind of accident reports we need to be able to understand better and learn - detailed and timely, vs NTSB reports which may take long time and typically have no details or worse, incorrect information.
And since the LAK17 was also mentioned in this thread, I would add that I heard of another LAK17 rudder cable disconnect, luckily after touch down, but if I recall correct this was a replacement cable and not factory cable.

I think the obvious lessons so far is to always inspect your glider as much as possible, and of course always fly with parachute!

Ramy