Texas Tragedy Info?

On Monday, June 18, 2012 1:13:11 PM UTC-7, Bill Palmer wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake. "

My control (including rudder check) is before hookup. If I understand what you're saying, you work the rudder before release.
1) how does that eliminate this deadly mistake?
2)What do you do if you discover it to be jammed at that time? Tow back to a landing? That's hardly the best time to discover that, I would think. {that may sound a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way - just a genuine inquiry}


On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:46:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight.

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead.. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

I mistyped, I meant I am looking at my spoilers, not checking my rudder...
So I'll repeat again what I was trying to say:
"my decision is to always look at my spoilers first before deciding to release no matter what the tow plane is doing (waggle the rudder or rock the wings). If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake."

This may have nothing to do with this tragic accident, but worth repeating.

Ramy

Ramy,
Thanks, I'm much less confused now.
:-)


On Monday, June 18, 2012 4:55:46 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 1:13:11 PM UTC-7, Bill Palmer wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing.. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake. "

My control (including rudder check) is before hookup. If I understand what you're saying, you work the rudder before release.
1) how does that eliminate this deadly mistake?
2)What do you do if you discover it to be jammed at that time? Tow back to a landing? That's hardly the best time to discover that, I would think. {that may sound a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way - just a genuine inquiry}


On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:46:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever..
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight..

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

I mistyped, I meant I am looking at my spoilers, not checking my rudder....
So I'll repeat again what I was trying to say:
"my decision is to always look at my spoilers first before deciding to release no matter what the tow plane is doing (waggle the rudder or rock the wings). If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake."

This may have nothing to do with this tragic accident, but worth repeating.

Ramy

On Jun 18, 12:35*pm, wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 2:13:38 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 10:54:30 AM UTC-7, cuflyer wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 9:37:03 AM UTC-4, Linwood wrote:
Anyone have any knowledge of the three fatality glider crash in Texas?
Glider type? Situation?

Linwood

Kid on his mother's lap - ? *Affecting control - ?
This is really ugly.

1FL

It was indeed the freaking tail dolly!!!
http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012...ash-under-inve...

Ramy

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Probably true, but I've seen some monster Lark dollies which were so
heavy one person could barely lift them. Even with the CG in the
allowable range, the Twin Lark demands respect. It might not take
much weight on the tail boom for it to turn nasty.

This accident has all the earmarks of one which will drive changes to
the FAR's. The FAA has been grumbling for years the requirements to
get a Commercial-Glider or CFI-G are way too easy to meet. I think
fair warning is in order that we may see changes to Part 61.

My deepest sympathies go to the family and friends of the mother and
daughter.

Very sad, especially so on Father's Day and with three members of the
same family.

Some other links with photos and video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...-glider-crash/

http://www.khou.com/home/3-family-me...=y&c=y&c=y&c=y

In image 2 of 8 at the KHOU site the (orange) tail dolly is clearly
visible in a picture taken at what might have been very soon after the
accident.

- John

On Monday, June 18, 2012 4:23:39 PM UTC-6, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Very sad, especially so on Father's Day and with three members of the
same family.

Some other links with photos and video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...-glider-crash/

http://www.khou.com/home/3-family-me...=y&c=y&c=y&c=y

In image 2 of 8 at the KHOU site the (orange) tail dolly is clearly
visible in a picture taken at what might have been very soon after the
accident.

- John
Report verifying that the tail dolly was on the glider.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Cause...159501035.html

If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

On Jun 19, 9:35*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

The IS28b2 manual calls for +10 degree flap for aero tow takeoff and
the normal technique is to lift the tail early so the dolly probably
had no effect on liftoff speed. If the dolly was light it very likely
didn't shift the CG enough to provide a probable cause or even a
contributory factor in this accident - the Twin Lark is a big, heavy
and stable bird. Most likely the dolly is significant only in that it
provides evidence of carelessness.

If you put a small child in the cockpit of a glider, they will almost
invariably start yanking, pulling and twisting everything they can
reach making them unsafe as passengers. A child in a mother's lap
would be able to reach everything except the rudder pedals.

On Jun 19, 11:35*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

Are the wing runners trained to check for extra big orange things
hanging off the glider
before takeoff? I know it is not their fault, but at the critical
launch the pilot is helpless to
see this mistake.