WGC Uvalde: US Team... What Happened????

On Monday, September 24, 2012 10:38:04 AM UTC-6, wrote:
While I do take offense at being given the moniker of "troll" in this discussion, I would like to thank all the posters and especially ZL, BB, OG, and F2 for their excellent responses and interest in this topic. THeir thoughts and honesty are refreshing and useful.



It just seemed to me that the worlds ended and then there was "wind whistling through the trees". Really? In light of what happened? This seemed to be the only place where an open discussion on this topic might plausibly take place for all (or at least those that peruse this forum) to see and learn from. If that is being a Troll, then I stand accused!



For competitive American pilots who want to pursue the racing aspect of our sport to its highest level, we need to discuss these things and have these discussions be open for all (experienced and aspiring) racing pilots to make use of.



And as far as the money issue goes, it is THE most important issue in our racing sport. To do well one needs to make a substantial commitment of time and resources. This is without doubt and cannot be changed. Our US Team members do this on a never-ending two year cycle and should be applauded for their efforts to represent us. But could we do better, given the tremendous amount of time and resources (i.e. DB and the Concordia) expended? That was all this thread was meant to do.



I, for one, would be more inclined to give more to the US Team if I knew the money was being well spent and the effort was aimed at producing podium finishes for both individuals AND team points. That is, after all, the goal of competition, isn't it?



Al Batross

Well, since you post under a nom de plume rather than a real name, the troll moniker fits. Well fed thread BTW. Yet, you fail to comment on the substance of my post, which others have suggested is part of the problem. I do know some US pilots, if they had the means or the support, may well have replaced some of the US team for this event, but they can't afford to compete in those classes on their own. However, I'm acquainted with several of the US team members and find them to be quite competent and worthy of selection. That said, a fellow SSA member reminded me that George Moffatt did have access to gliders through the support of another. As I trained originally in the UK, I was pleased to have 32 glider makes in my logbook within the first four years, two of which I owned shares in. That type of exposure is a bit harder to acquire in the US. As a scorer in the 93 and 94 UK Opens and later a US regional CD, I objected to the US photo TP approach, US windicapping, and the emerging beer can TP's. My experience was that we in the US were flying to different standard in our competitions to the effect it was a lesser standard. I understand the emergence of the current US rules, but I appreciate the vocal club class proponents wanting something other than Sports Class rules as a discriminator.

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, September 24, 2012 11:35:09 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, September 24, 2012 10:38:04 AM UTC-6, wrote:

While I do take offense at being given the moniker of "troll" in this discussion, I would like to thank all the posters and especially ZL, BB, OG, and F2 for their excellent responses and interest in this topic. THeir thoughts and honesty are refreshing and useful.







It just seemed to me that the worlds ended and then there was "wind whistling through the trees". Really? In light of what happened? This seemed to be the only place where an open discussion on this topic might plausibly take place for all (or at least those that peruse this forum) to see and learn from. If that is being a Troll, then I stand accused!







For competitive American pilots who want to pursue the racing aspect of our sport to its highest level, we need to discuss these things and have these discussions be open for all (experienced and aspiring) racing pilots to make use of.







And as far as the money issue goes, it is THE most important issue in our racing sport. To do well one needs to make a substantial commitment of time and resources. This is without doubt and cannot be changed. Our US Team members do this on a never-ending two year cycle and should be applauded for their efforts to represent us. But could we do better, given the tremendous amount of time and resources (i.e. DB and the Concordia) expended? That was all this thread was meant to do.







I, for one, would be more inclined to give more to the US Team if I knew the money was being well spent and the effort was aimed at producing podium finishes for both individuals AND team points. That is, after all, the goal of competition, isn't it?







Al Batross



Well, since you post under a nom de plume rather than a real name, the troll moniker fits. Well fed thread BTW. Yet, you fail to comment on the substance of my post, which others have suggested is part of the problem. I do know some US pilots, if they had the means or the support, may well have replaced some of the US team for this event, but they can't afford to compete in those classes on their own. However, I'm acquainted with several of the US team members and find them to be quite competent and worthy of selection. That said, a fellow SSA member reminded me that George Moffatt did have access to gliders through the support of another. As I trained originally in the UK, I was pleased to have 32 glider makes in my logbook within the first four years, two of which I owned shares in. That type of exposure is a bit harder to acquire in the US. As a scorer in the 93 and 94 UK Opens and later a US regional CD, I objected to the US photo TP approach, US windicapping, and the emerging beer can TP's. My experience was that we in the US were flying to different standard in our competitions to the effect it was a lesser standard. I understand the emergence of the current US rules, but I appreciate the vocal club class proponents wanting something other than Sports Class rules as a discriminator.



Frank Whiteley

I will add that there is some patronage and much generosity in US soaring. I recall one US soaring family that attempted to provide gliders for our US junior team development, but that offer did not complete.

Frank

Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas.

All...first please join me in saluting John Cochrane and Dave Leonard for taking the high road in responding to the OP's insulting remarks.

COW PILES Al! Unless you have ascended to team member level, what gives you the privilege to make these assessments?

Reality has been ignored. Least to forget is the privilege to make the US WGC Team is open to any and all qualified US citizens and the Team recognizes the best of those who accepted the call. And I submit, any rule structure will have absolutely no bearing on the team selection outcome. You can change whatever you like, but except perhaps for an instance of bad luck, the better pilot will always be at the top of the team selection list.

Also absent from this discussion is the substantial difference in how the US embraces soaring as opposed to other countries. There is little to no heritage or passion for soaring here in the US. More or less here in the US, soaring ingredients are the sole responsibility of each individual pilot. Certainly not so outside the US.

Study the where and how of today's world champions. Odds are their homeland holds a passion for soaring like the US has for baseball, Canada has for ice hockey, Britain has for soccer, Norway has for XC skiing, the French for wine, Germans have for Mercedes-Benz, Italians have for Ferrari,and Russians have for warm hats and Vodka. There, if a youngster has soaring interest, more than likely there is a large, organized, and well funded club within a short distance willing to nurture that passion by providing education and experience in top drawer equipment at reasonable expense. Such support is not found in the US.

Harris Hill has always set the example for a US youth program and have nurtured many excellent pilots. But to produce world champions, the US will need a competition soaring training program similar to the support given to the US downhill skiing team. So IMHO, it boils down to how much money you are willing to donate to accommodate those lucky few who are blessed with a combination of skill and determination. I'm sure the SSA would appreciate your contributions to make it so.

Hi all, i have been following this debate with interest, and some valid arguments have been made, but also some unfair comments. I dont want to get involved with the SSA rules debate, neither the internal politics, so I will just make some observations, as seen from the outside.
The US pilots can compete with the best of the world on any given day, as they have proven on some days. To finish in the top third of any class, is no small feat, as the winning margins are extremely small. Its not about winning every day, its about minimizing mistakes or less than perfect decisions during the whole contest. Winning by not losing, as George Moffat said. This is where the weak point of flying alone comes in. Even if we as pilots compete as individuals, it still helps to discuss situations and decisions with a team mate. Nine times out of ten the thought processes will be the same, but the tenth time your own decision might be flawed as seen through a team mates eyes, and discussing the decision in the air makes this obvious, thereby minimizing weaker decisions. What follows is an overall better decision making process through the contest, giving better overall results.
There is no home ground advantage when flying over flat terrain. The worlds top competing piolots fly extremely well in all conditions. Some homeground advantage can be had over mountainous terrain.
To be one of the best, you need to fly the most competitive equipment. But you dont need to own it. Gliders can be rented or loaned. There are many pilots that want to see youngsters do well, and will make their gliders avialable. But these pilots want to see commitment, and sometimes that lacks in our younger generation
Oscar Goudriaan
SA

Let me make this simple.

Team flying + US "Soaring TEAM?" = Individuals who instinctively fly for themselves in LARGE TURN AREA TASKS.

If that was a math problem it would be 1 + 1 = 0 or false. It does not compute.

It really is this simple. And the powers that be in the SSA have their heels dug in tight and are waiting to crush any resistance immediately, why are we still wasting our time here talking about it?

Bottom line is that the SSA organization does not care in the slightest about World Championship results or the US Soaring Individuals (Team). If they did, they would get out of the way. They only care about their participation in US events. That is the only focus. So while that narrative is in play, nothing much is going to change. If you are disappointed, its all about adjusting your expectations :-).

The US soaring team has GREAT pilots. But they are playing checkers. The WORLD plays chess. If they are given a home environment in which they can practice and improve at Chess (FAI), they will slowly (perhaps rapidly) become more competitive at a World level AND we may see some more foreign pilots coming to join us at US contests.

But, its going to be checkers until enough resistance is applied to that rope...



Maybe the lack of debate and substantive change around this topic is why we did so badly in the first place.



Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas.



We can't do much worse than we just did, so how can we change our competitive fortunes? Or does no one care?



Al Batross

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On Monday, September 17, 2012 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
To everyone with an interest:



Given the sub-par, and I am being generous here, performance of the US Soaring Team at the recently completed WGC. Is anyone else wondering what in the world happened?



Maybe the lack of debate and substantive change around this topic is why we did so badly in the first place.



Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas.



We can't do much worse than we just did, so how can we change our competitive fortunes? Or does no one care?



Al Batross

who said we did poorly? a 70- year old man won two days in a home-made glider.

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:33:04 AM UTC-7, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:

Let's face it gentlemen: The sport in is decline, in the US in

particular. You need to breed testosterone fueled young blood glider

pilots. How do you expect a geriatric population of pilots who discuss

how to hoist each other out of cockpits with mini cranes to kick ass

against the likes of the Supermenschen of the 4th Reich - where every

village has a glider club with cheap winch launches and hot gliders (no

Schweizer museum relics!)?

Except your racist answer doesn't exactly explain the French, British, Polish, and South African pilots, among others, who were also at the top. Although I tend to agree about the museum relics...

Kirk

I thought that their percentage of the winning scores were pretty good, I haven't done it but maybe someone could look at how many points per minute were scored, overall, and then how many minutes they were actually out of first place. If this were done I think we probably did pretty well. These are very good pilots and a mistake that loses a few minutes is really significant.

I'm with the glass half full crowd. So what if we didn't beat the pants off the rest of the world. It's a big place. We should be celebrating our amazing pilots, and ALSO all the other amazing pilots of the world. We hosted a great event and it had to be very exciting to be a part of. ... Aaron

P.S. lets get captions on all the photos in SoaringCafe. I'ld like to match faces with names.

The other teams - including the South Africans fly together, train
together, work as a team. Know each other's strengths, know the FAI
rules backwards and know how to exploit them etc.

On your own it is much harder - Look at Mark Holliday - he was alone in
15m and probably placed a lot lower than if his partner had been able to
make the contest.

The majority of our clubs are training with stuff Methuselah would have
regarded as "quaint". The competitive pilots (in many countries like
Holland, UK, Germany, France, etc) get competitive equipment, at their
own expense and learn how to use it to maximum effect. Relatively
straight forward strategy.

The German model does make things better, because their club structure
and social leanings encourage an investment led ecosystem. That way
there is new shiny stuff to train on etc. Of course they then ship the
stuff to South Africa to fly at places like Gariep and Bloemfontein -
because you can't buy weather.

On 2012/09/18 11:55 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:33:04 AM UTC-7, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:

Let's face it gentlemen: The sport in is decline, in the US in

particular. You need to breed testosterone fueled young blood glider

pilots. How do you expect a geriatric population of pilots who discuss

how to hoist each other out of cockpits with mini cranes to kick ass

against the likes of the Supermenschen of the 4th Reich - where every

village has a glider club with cheap winch launches and hot gliders (no

Schweizer museum relics!)?

Except your racist answer doesn't exactly explain the French, British, Polish, and South African pilots, among others, who were also at the top. Although I tend to agree about the museum relics...

Kirk


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771