Spin training for US pilots?

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:11:56 PM UTC-6, Ralph Jones wrote:

Even more amazing: It is possible to become an airline captain without

ever having had an airplane upside down...

What does having an airplane upside down have to do with airline captains? I think you are confusing machizmo with relevance. A more appropriate statement would be "By the time a pilot becomes a Captain he/she has had plenty of upset and unusual attitude recovery training."

Spin training in wave in a Blanik L-23 has got to be the most fun (and most productive hour of training) that I have ever had in a glider.

"Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin?"

Rutan Solitaire? :-)

Of course there are quite a few that are placarded against deliberate spins..

Always loved deliberately spinning the L-13's the club used to have. The L-23 isn't quite as much fun in a spin. Never managed to get a real spin out if the Twin Astir RG or Acro but the DG-505 does it nicely. We used to have an early Standard Jantar which would drop a wing and spin pretty steep and fast (by glider standards) with little warning. My ASW-15B really has to be provoked to enter a spin.

Regardless of what the FAA found regarding the risk/benefit relationship of spin training in general aviation I would think that with gliders the fact that we spend so much time flying relatively close to stall speed would mean that spin training would have a higher benefit for us than light aeroplane pilots.

Changes made in the training syllabus in Canada regarding spins since I started flying in 1998 are that there is much more emphasis on recognizing stall/spin warning signs and correctly responding to them. The actual full blooded spins are now done with a slow, shallow banked turn combined with too much bottom rudder as the entry. When I started flying we used to enter the spin from a straight ahead sharp stall combined with quick full rudder deflection.

Having learned to fly in the "good ol days" when power pilots actually
had to demonstrate a full stall as opposed to recognizing an eminent
stall, I am biased on this topic.
I have been flying aerobatics for most of my life and have taken
dozens of fellow pilots up for some adventure. When my fellow pilots
take control and attempt a full stall or spin, the vast majority
freeze up mentally and/or physically upon entering the maneuver. They
are not used to the feelings, the control feel, the sight picture, and
the sounds, or lack there of. It is my opinion that this is a major
factor in most of our "falling out of the sky" accidents. I agree
that because we fly so close to the bottom end of the flight envelop
we should be experts at recognizing and taking control of "departures
from controlled flight." It also takes regular practice. At the
least, I vote for our biennual fight reviews to include entering and
recovering from full stalls and full spins (providing the aircraft is
appropriate for this activity).

Guy Acheson "DDS"

guy wrote:
When my fellow pilots
take control and attempt a full stall or spin, the vast majority
freeze up mentally and/or physically upon entering the maneuver. They
are not used to the feelings, the control feel, the sight picture, and
the sounds, or lack there of.

My instructor took me into my first spin many years ago,
when I was a pre-solo pupil.

My feeling then, and I've had no reason to change it since,
is that I strongly doubt I would have recovered on my own,
for exactly the reasons you mention.

Personally I'm glad my club has gliders that can be used
for spin training at down to 1000ft, and that I/we practice
them annually.

On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:30:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
"Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin?"



Rutan Solitaire? :-)



Of course there are quite a few that are placarded against deliberate spins.



Always loved deliberately spinning the L-13's the club used to have. The L-23 isn't quite as much fun in a spin. Never managed to get a real spin out if the Twin Astir RG or Acro but the DG-505 does it nicely. We used to have an early Standard Jantar which would drop a wing and spin pretty steep and fast (by glider standards) with little warning. My ASW-15B really has to be provoked to enter a spin.



Regardless of what the FAA found regarding the risk/benefit relationship of spin training in general aviation I would think that with gliders the fact that we spend so much time flying relatively close to stall speed would mean that spin training would have a higher benefit for us than light aeroplane pilots.



Changes made in the training syllabus in Canada regarding spins since I started flying in 1998 are that there is much more emphasis on recognizing stall/spin warning signs and correctly responding to them. The actual full blooded spins are now done with a slow, shallow banked turn combined with too much bottom rudder as the entry. When I started flying we used to enter the spin from a straight ahead sharp stall combined with quick full rudder deflection.

I used to enjoy spins in the L-13, too. We require spin training for all
our students, but we put it as a post-solo lesson. Pre-solo we cover
stalls, stall awareness, and slow flight (incipient stall) once the student
has mastered basic control of the aircraft.

I'll disagree about Grobs spinning. They don't stay in the spin very long,
but they depart in a most impressive manner if you enter properly. The
entry is the exact setup that catches people by surprise -- slow speed,
shallow turn, bottom rudder, and then react "instinctively" with aileron
instead of rudder. The wing drops very quickly and one finds oneself looking
up at the ground. This only lasts about half a turn before becoming a
spiral dive, but it happens even with forward cg. It's good to see this
in a Grob because the Grob has a reputation as being hard to stall or spin.
It also leads into a discussion that other planes the pilot will fly can
depart more quickly and stay in longer, and teaches them to be vigilant
because even in a "benign" plane the entry can be a killer.

Matt

I do spin training and upset recovery, so we'll see and practice what happen in all the potential dangerous situations and how to get out of it.

You need to practice, because one thing is "knowing" what to do, totally different is to react promptly, having a clear vision of what is going to happen far in advance, and most of all not overreacting.

I show you how to get into a spin from many different situations and attitudes, like in thermalling, but also with skids on landings (we do that up high), you'll see how many feet you lose in a stall, and actually train your body to recognize those dangers, so you will just automatically avoid them without even thinking.

Just little part of the program...