Junior World Championships - FAI Rules Absurdity

Ok. To summarize a bit from the last few posts, the main problems with the US rules a
1. HATE MAT tasks.
2. Pretty much dislike AAT tasks
3. Want an adrenaline rush on final glide

To me, the first two are an issue between the CD and the pilots at the contest. No rule changes need to be implemented to cover those 2 issues. The only drawback I foresee is that out of 30 pilots at a contest, 5 will want AST's called every day and the other 25 will not return next year because they prefer MAT's and AAT's and don't want to fly for 5 hours on task (6+ for the day). The vocal minority keeps this issue up and running in RAS.

The third is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Both rule sets include procedures that must be obeyed to return to the airport. I compete in a few locations where you could be dead if you land 1/2 mile short of the airport. Sagebrush and lava are not forgiving to fiberglass moving at 48 knots. Agreed, the penalties in the US rules are severe for low returns and speed vs. distance points. You don't need a contest to practice low contest finishes. To prep for an FAI contest, you can do that on any flight at your home airport. So other than getting a thrill and doing it in front of the other contest pilots, what is the point? For me, landing safely without damage to my glider (or me) after many hours in the air is more important than an adrenaline hit.
Craig Reinholt

The only truths I see about the IGC rules (95% of the world) and the US
rules (5% of the world) a

Guys, we love you to bits but this does look like a bit of a recurring
theme to us in the rest of the world. Maybe the US self belief that the US
knows best is what drives you to success but to many in the wider world it
looks a bit daft.

World IGC Rules - US different
World Metric - US Imperial
In particular for commerical aviation:
World Tonnes - US Pounds
World HPa - US Inches of Mercury

Then there is:
World Colour/Favour/Labour - US Color/Favor/Labor
World Government Transparancy - US Gov Secrecy
World Whistle blower hero - US Traitor
World Left leaning liberalism - US Right wing imperialism, I am joking but
to many it looks just like that, more war war than jaw jaw.

Believe me, there is a big wide world out there, that has many varied
cultures and customs, and that is learning how to work together in many
ways for the common good.

You do not need to stand apart or 'lead' all the time, it would be good if
the US sometimes decided to join in. Go on, you can do it!

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:50:05 AM UTC-4, Jim White wrote:


The only truths I see about the IGC rules (95% of the world) and the US

rules (5% of the world) a



Guys, we love you to bits but this does look like a bit of a recurring

theme to us in the rest of the world. Maybe the US self belief that the US

knows best is what drives you to success but to many in the wider world it

looks a bit daft.



World IGC Rules - US different

World Metric - US Imperial

In particular for commerical aviation:

World Tonnes - US Pounds

World HPa - US Inches of Mercury



Then there is:

World Colour/Favour/Labour - US Color/Favor/Labor

World Government Transparancy - US Gov Secrecy

World Whistle blower hero - US Traitor

World Left leaning liberalism - US Right wing imperialism, I am joking but

to many it looks just like that, more war war than jaw jaw.



Believe me, there is a big wide world out there, that has many varied

cultures and customs, and that is learning how to work together in many

ways for the common good.



You do not need to stand apart or 'lead' all the time, it would be good if

the US sometimes decided to join in. Go on, you can do it!

Jim,

Glad you still love is even if the government that claims to have the consent of the governed (it certainly hasn't been the "informed consent", lol) isn't so lovable.

You have to understand that politics over here borrows much from professional sports. It doesn't matter that your team is insane, paranoid and intends to trod unforgivably on the very things that made this country (pardon my chauvinism) special, it matters that they win. And having won, principles and promises of doing things a certain way can be safely swept into the closet, business continues apace and the cheer leaders and the fans still cheer.

There's plenty of bs in competition rules on all sides of all oceans. I think it'd be really nice if we all converged on a rules set that kept the emphasis on soaring rather than game theory. It's my opinion that US rules are slightly better in this regard at the moment, but that's just my opinion..

Best,

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:50:05 AM UTC-4, Jim White wrote:


The only truths I see about the IGC rules (95% of the world) and the US

rules (5% of the world) a



Guys, we love you to bits but this does look like a bit of a recurring

theme to us in the rest of the world. Maybe the US self belief that the US

knows best is what drives you to success but to many in the wider world it

looks a bit daft.



World IGC Rules - US different

World Metric - US Imperial

In particular for commerical aviation:

World Tonnes - US Pounds

World HPa - US Inches of Mercury



Then there is:

World Colour/Favour/Labour - US Color/Favor/Labor

World Government Transparancy - US Gov Secrecy

World Whistle blower hero - US Traitor

World Left leaning liberalism - US Right wing imperialism, I am joking but

to many it looks just like that, more war war than jaw jaw.



Believe me, there is a big wide world out there, that has many varied

cultures and customs, and that is learning how to work together in many

ways for the common good.



You do not need to stand apart or 'lead' all the time, it would be good if

the US sometimes decided to join in. Go on, you can do it!

Thanks Jim. All true.

AH

On 13/08/2013 21:50, Jim White wrote:

The only truths I see about the IGC rules (95% of the world) and the US
rules (5% of the world) a

Guys, we love you to bits but this does look like a bit of a recurring
theme to us in the rest of the world. Maybe the US self belief that the US
knows best is what drives you to success but to many in the wider world it
looks a bit daft.

World IGC Rules - US different
World Metric - US Imperial
In particular for commerical aviation:
World Tonnes - US Pounds
World HPa - US Inches of Mercury

A lecture on the evils of exceptionalism from someone with an address in
the UK shows either immense chutzpah or complete ignorance (well, it is,
after all, the UK).

The reasons for differences in commercial aviation are mainly because
the US effectively invented it and is still the largest single part of
it but Europe (including its UK satellite) sulkily refuses to recognise
this historical fact. While picking up on altimeter sub-scales, he
ignores the actual face of the instrument which the UK also calibrates
in feet while the "World" does it in metres.

While mentioning lbs as a US pecadillo (which was still how the UK
measured most aircraft weights last time I was there), he ignores the
face of UK ASIs still stubbornly calibrated in knots. He also ignores
the UK use of nautical miles on DMEs rather than km.

Finally, I'm surprised he doesn't note the interesting fact that in the
UK it's only legal to sell wine in metric glasses (tiny by world
standards, but metrically tiny - 125ml, 175ml, etc!) but beer has to be
sold in pints or fractions of a pint. Who's running their own private
race there!

I'll leave out the typically smug UK politics but just mention that only
the UK could see the way English words are spelt by themselves as
"World". Guess what spellings are used in teaching English in China?

GC


Then there is:
World Colour/Favour/Labour - US Color/Favor/Labor
World Government Transparancy - US Gov Secrecy
World Whistle blower hero - US Traitor
World Left leaning liberalism - US Right wing imperialism, I am joking but
to many it looks just like that, more war war than jaw jaw.

Believe me, there is a big wide world out there, that has many varied
cultures and customs, and that is learning how to work together in many
ways for the common good.

You do not need to stand apart or 'lead' all the time, it would be good if
the US sometimes decided to join in. Go on, you can do it!

At 05:58 15 August 2013, GC wrote:

The reasons for differences in commercial aviation are mainly because
the US effectively invented it and is still the largest single part of
it but Europe (including its UK satellite) sulkily refuses to recognise
this historical fact.

I think perhaps that George Cayley's coachman, both Brits, has been
accredited with the first manned heavier than air flight in 1853.

The Graf Zeppelin performed the first commercial transatlantic flight in
1929 - German?

The first commercial Jet was the de Havilland Comet

The confusion between Hg and HPa is a safety issue not a cultural one. It
should be resolved.

Beer in the UK is sold in metric measures except in pubs. This is a
cultural thing (see later in my post about diverse cultures) not a safety
issue.

I'll leave out the typically smug UK politics but just mention that only
the UK could see the way English words are spelt by themselves as
"World". Guess what spellings are used in teaching English in China?

Surely you know where the English language comes from? Oh dear.

GC, reread my post. I tried to make my points without insulting anyone. Now
look at yours. Enough said about diplomacy.

Jim

At 05:58 15 August 2013, GC wrote:

The reasons for differences in commercial aviation are mainly because
the US effectively invented it and is still the largest single part of
it but Europe (including its UK satellite) sulkily refuses to recognise
this historical fact.

I think perhaps that George Cayley's coachman, both Brits, has been
accredited with the first manned heavier than air flight in 1853.

The Graf Zeppelin performed the first commercial transatlantic flight in
1929 - German?

The first commercial Jet was the de Havilland Comet

The confusion between Hg and HPa is a safety issue not a cultural one. It
should be resolved.

Beer in the UK is sold in metric measures except in pubs. This is a
cultural thing (see later in my post about diverse cultures) not a safety
issue.

I'll leave out the typically smug UK politics but just mention that only
the UK could see the way English words are spelt by themselves as
"World". Guess what spellings are used in teaching English in China?

Surely you know where the English language comes from? Oh dear.

GC, reread my post. I tried to make my points without insulting anyone. Now
look at yours. Enough said about diplomacy.

Jim

On Monday, August 12, 2013 8:41:57 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Your analysis doesn't account for speed and the altitude gained by pulling
up after finishing.

Hi Dan,

Quite right, I didn't include any kinetic-to-potential energy exchange. The number of feet involved can vary quite dramatically. In the end, because IGC rules encourage longer tasking that use up the available day and because the scoring for speed versus distance points yield a greater amount of gaggling and start-gate roulette, I thought it was fair to assume that a significant proportion of finishers would be at low McCready settings where the altitude gained in a pullup would be on the same order as the height of obstacles to be surmounted at the airport boundary. A 2-knot McCready starting speed yields less than 100 feet in a pullup to best L/D speed.

There's no single precise answer to what McCready setting to use for such a single-point analysis, but that's also beside the point. The real question was, why is it preferable to set up the finish by rule in such a way that a significant portion of pilots end up making low, slow, straight-in approaches to the airport? Is it a superior way to set up the finish, and if so, why?

9B

" because IGC rules encourage longer tasking that use up the available day...."
Because the US rules seem to favor (and often result in) AAT's with very large circles..."

Minor correction: There is NOTHING in US rules about short tasks or large circle AATs.

"10.3.1.3 Normal Task - Tasks should make as full use of the available soaring weather as is practical"

Appendix: "- Try to use the full day, not merely the best part of it.."

The TAT appendix suggests 8-10 mile radius and 15 miles for the final steering turn.

Short tasks and few enormous turn areas rather than a larger number of smaller turns are choices made by the CD and task advisers, often in response to pilot complaining. If you want the opposite, talk to the CD don't complain about the rules.

John Cochrane

Short tasks and few enormous turn areas rather than a larger number of smaller turns are choices made by the CD and task advisers, often in response to pilot complaining. If you want the opposite, talk to the CD don't complain about the rules.


In the last 5 years I have yet to fly a contest in which a task was over
called, inversely, I have flown many in which tasks were under called or
the day was scrubbed way too early. Personally I much rather land out
due to an over call knowing that I used the whole day to the fullest
rather then come home with a sky in which I could keep flying for
another 2 hours!

I have not heard (maybe I chose not to listen...) a single pilot
complaining that a task was too hard or too long. I do (or choose to?)
hear many who agree with me that we need to use the whole day and need
more assigned tasks. Even at the last US 15m nationals, where Tim did
an excellent job calling tasks and using the whole day, we did not have
a single Assigned Task - this nats decided the US team that is going to
the WGC next year! We can complain to the CD's all we want but it is
the RC that has the authority, perhaps we need more emphasis on the
wording or clearer direction for the CD's coming from the top.

If you want to improve the results on the world stage look to the task
types and duration being flown at FAI contests, we need to train in
similar conditions to be competitive. For the pilots who don't want
that and rather come home early and have a beer the answer is simple -
SPORTS Class...

Luke Szczepaniak