Top five winch experts/consultants in the US?

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:32:22 AM UTC-6, Echo wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:09:02 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:15:02 AM UTC-4, Echo wrote:



Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...







Maybe these prices are not affordable for you, but they seem reasonable for a commercial operation that wants to break even in the long run.







Most clubs charge too little. If they had charged slightly higher rates for the last 30 years, they would now have the money in the bank to buy a new glass two-seater to replace their venerable 2-33.



So arguably the best club in the country that currently owns a K21, LS6, LS4, L23, L33, two towplanes...but has the lowest dues and tow rates around.....



Basic economics here. They have a lot of members, because it is affordable. The majority of them aren't very active, but they pay dues because they can justify the relatively low cost. This lowers the overhead for everyone, thus reducing dues and keeping tows affordable. They've had a great history of great people which has allowed them to build this membership as well. When people ask me where to get a glider rating, I send them to a club, every time. Clubs like that are the engine that jump starts the professional and sport aviation careers of people like myself and countless others.



E

That chapter is a 501(c)(3), which I promote. I believe the LS-6b was donated and I believe they have secured member donations in the past to buy other gliders. They also have a $100k fund (Cloud Fund) for promotion to youth, also donated. In this type of organization, it's possible for some or all of the joining fees and dues to be tax deductible. It it currently the 12th largest. So I think it's both economics of scale plus an effective business model and perhaps an affinity for this type of organization that keeps inactive members supportive. There is no problem with a charitable non-profit organization making a profit. The profit must go towards the stated purpose of the organization.

We have a new chapter forming here in Colorado. Their intent is to apply for a 501(c)(3) determination and be a winch based operation. Part of this 501(c)(4)political mess created large back logs within the IRS approval process. Not because of the targeted review argument, because all applications are reviewed by a case agent, but because of the tens of thousands of applicants for the political re-education NPO's. It took the 501(c)(3) application process from as little at 42 days to 9 months, then 14 months. So I know of at least one in the pipeline, that was initially responded to in January, another that was held back for a period until some of this started to settle, and this new start-up. At the moment we have something like 25 or 26 chapters with 501(c)(3) determinations. We had at least two clubs lose there 501(c)(7) determinations this year due to failure to file their 990N, and one regional 501(c)(3) also, for apparently the same reason. We have about 35 other clubs/chapters that have 501(c)(7) tax exemptions.

A large club with a 501(c)(3) determination will find that it's worth about $30,000-$60,000/year and potentially much more. Are there other models? Certainly. The largest US gliding club has a layered business structure and no tax exemptions for either entity. Another is both a club and business member.

Frank Whiteley

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:18:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!

It's difficult for one "expert" to conduct new operation training - you really need two people. There should be one at the winch training winch operators and a CFI-G in the glider training the club's flight instructors on winch technique.

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 7:29:55 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:32:22 AM UTC-6, Echo wrote:

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:09:02 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:



On Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:15:02 AM UTC-4, Echo wrote:







Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...















Maybe these prices are not affordable for you, but they seem reasonable for a commercial operation that wants to break even in the long run.















Most clubs charge too little. If they had charged slightly higher rates for the last 30 years, they would now have the money in the bank to buy a new glass two-seater to replace their venerable 2-33.







So arguably the best club in the country that currently owns a K21, LS6, LS4, L23, L33, two towplanes...but has the lowest dues and tow rates around....







Basic economics here. They have a lot of members, because it is affordable. The majority of them aren't very active, but they pay dues because they can justify the relatively low cost. This lowers the overhead for everyone, thus reducing dues and keeping tows affordable. They've had a great history of great people which has allowed them to build this membership as well. When people ask me where to get a glider rating, I send them to a club, every time. Clubs like that are the engine that jump starts the professional and sport aviation careers of people like myself and countless others.







E



That chapter is a 501(c)(3), which I promote. I believe the LS-6b was donated and I believe they have secured member donations in the past to buy other gliders. They also have a $100k fund (Cloud Fund) for promotion to youth, also donated. In this type of organization, it's possible for some or all of the joining fees and dues to be tax deductible. It it currently the 12th largest. So I think it's both economics of scale plus an effective business model and perhaps an affinity for this type of organization that keeps inactive members supportive. There is no problem with a charitable non-profit organization making a profit. The profit must go towards the stated purpose of the organization.



We have a new chapter forming here in Colorado. Their intent is to apply for a 501(c)(3) determination and be a winch based operation. Part of this 501(c)(4)political mess created large back logs within the IRS approval process. Not because of the targeted review argument, because all applications are reviewed by a case agent, but because of the tens of thousands of applicants for the political re-education NPO's. It took the 501(c)(3) application process from as little at 42 days to 9 months, then 14 months. So I know of at least one in the pipeline, that was initially responded to in January, another that was held back for a period until some of this started to settle, and this new start-up. At the moment we have something like 25 or 26 chapters with 501(c)(3) determinations. We had at least two clubs lose there 501(c)(7) determinations this year due to failure to file their 990N, and one regional 501(c)(3) also, for apparently the same reason. We have about 35 other clubs/chapters that have 501(c)(7) tax exemptions.



A large club with a 501(c)(3) determination will find that it's worth about $30,000-$60,000/year and potentially much more. Are there other models? Certainly. The largest US gliding club has a layered business structure and no tax exemptions for either entity. Another is both a club and business member.



Frank Whiteley

The 6 was donated, but I'm not sure about member donations toward gliders. Not as far as I know.

Le dimanche 25 août 2013 18:22:43 UTC+2, Nigel Pocock a écrit*:


Since geographical location is of no concern why restrict this enquiry to

the US? Europe has far more experience of winch operations - particularly

Germany. They probably do more winch launches per weekend than the US does

in a year.

Excellent suggestion. I would contact the people at Oerlinghausen (http://www.luftsportzentrum-oerlinghausen.de/index.php). There are no less than 14 clubs on the single airfield of Oerlinghausen, with 5 winch launch runways in use... 50 000 movements/year. And a very good safety record.