Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

Sounds like a decent idea, John, but I think you should actually try it at
least once in flight. The act of raising your hand ala "stick 'em up" is
different than a straight back pull so I think you should see how it feels
and if it really works.

Intuitively, it looks like the gesture you mentioned would result in about a
45 degree upward pull on the release. Would the cable jam in its fairlead?

The release knob in my LAK is a fairly small disk, about a half inch (maybe
a bit more) in diameter and might be easy to miss in an emergency. I think
I'll give your rope idea a try for myself.

"JohnDeRosa" wrote in message
...
Couple of things;

1) THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR HAND ON THE RELEASE! NOT ON THE SPOILERS!
Can we all say "oops"?

2) I had a PTT when I had my hand on the release. Never again.

3) That being said (#2 above) I saw a friend get in trouble on tow and
couldn't find the release handle due to G forces (scratch one glider). So I
came up with a fairly long lanyard that goes from the release knob to my
wrist. In this way small movements of my hand won't impact the release but,
in an emergency, a half way hands up gesture of "you're under arrest" will
release the tow. Luckily I have never used this. Needless to say I use the
knob for a non-emergency releases. Here is a link to my Mark 1 version
(Bumper type model numbering), I don't have a shot of Mark II with its
adjustable palm knob and black nylon webbing.
http://aviation.derosaweb.net/images...selandyard.JPG

My $0.02.

- John

On Friday, October 4, 2013 3:57:04 PM UTC-4, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Couple of things; 1) THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR HAND ON THE RELEASE! NOT ON THE SPOILERS! Can we all say "oops"? 2) I had a PTT when I had my hand on the release. Never again. 3) That being said (#2 above) I saw a friend get in trouble on tow and couldn't find the release handle due to G forces (scratch one glider). So I came up with a fairly long lanyard that goes from the release knob to my wrist. In this way small movements of my hand won't impact the release but, in an emergency, a half way hands up gesture of "you're under arrest" will release the tow. Luckily I have never used this. Needless to say I use the knob for a non-emergency releases. Here is a link to my Mark 1 version (Bumper type model numbering), I don't have a shot of Mark II with its adjustable palm knob and black nylon webbing. http://aviation.derosaweb.net/images...selandyard.JPG My $0.02. - John

The lanyard loop is a fairly old solution that, I understand resulted from Gerhard Waibel not being able to get to the release on a '20 at Eagle Field resulting in a crunch of sorts. Interestingly, the releases on all his following gliders are up on the left and easily seen and gripped.
For 19's and 20's and such, we make a loop out of about 24 inches of parachute cord that loops around the release handle. The pilot lays this across his left thigh, and the release is easily found and pulled if needed quickly.. Holding the loop with slack would present minimal risk of accidently releasing and yet provides the benefit of quick access.
People adding to other ships should consider what such a loop may interfere with when implementing.
I guard the release during the early part of ground launches, but stay away from it on aero tow.
Another voice heard from
UH

Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you inadvertently pull the release.
Probably not too bad if still on the ground.

The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch accident. Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an altitude and to high an attitude.

Aero tow, I was giving a flight review and the pilot tried to hold his fist right in front of the 2-33 release, it was a bumpy tow and his hand was everywhere except near the release. We discussed the usefulness of that concept.

BT

On Friday, October 4, 2013 8:06:12 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?

Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you inadvertently pull the release.

Probably not too bad if still on the ground.



The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch accident.. Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an altitude and to high an attitude.



Aero tow, I was giving a flight review and the pilot tried to hold his fist right in front of the 2-33 release, it was a bumpy tow and his hand was everywhere except near the release. We discussed the usefulness of that concept.



BT

OK, I gotta jump in here. Keeping a hand on the release is SOP on winch launch. If the ground roll isn't perfectly straight and level, you have to release instantly.

A launch failure can happen anytime at any height on a winch launch and in itself doesn't cause accidents - provided the PIC is doing his job of flying the glider. Student pilots can expect an instructor to pull the release at any height and then be expected to land the glider safely.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:06:12 -0700, Bill T wrote:

Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you
inadvertently pull the release.
Probably not too bad if still on the ground.

If that happens, would you really want to stay on?

If/when that happens to me the release gets pulled because:
(1) I don't want a large bight in the shock rope to wrap round my wheel
(2) I'd rather not subject my hook to the sort of snatch load a powerful
winch can apply.

The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch
accident. Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an
altitude and to high an attitude.

This a good reason for the UK emphasis on a slow rotation into full climb
and not starting rotation until you have 150% of stall speed (50kts in
most gliders) and positive acceleration. It helps to ensure that while
you're low and slow you're not steep.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 02:06 05 October 2013, Bill T wrote:
Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you
inadvertently pull the release.
Probably not too bad if still on the ground.

The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch
accident.
Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an altitude and
to
high an attitude.

Aero tow, I was giving a flight review and the pilot tried to hold his
fist
right in front of the 2-33 release, it was a bumpy tow and his hand was
everywhere except near the release. We discussed the usefulness of that
concept.

BT

It is absolutely essential that hand contact with the release is maintained
from the time a cable is attached to the time until flight is achieved on a
winch launch. The wing drop/yaw/crash sequence is well documented and while
being able to operate the release quickly does nothing to prevent, only
mitigates the severity of the accident, it is nevertheless literally the
difference between life and death.
Inadvertently operating the release on a winch launch may prove
embarrassing, not operating the release if a wing drops may spare your
embarrassment by killing you.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...NN%2006-13.pdf

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...NN%2006-13.pdf

There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it makes one want to cry.

A few:

1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt headwind component..
3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing went down.
4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't precisely normal.

A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely have aileron control BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in around one second after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once airborne, there's no danger of dragging a wing.

At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.

At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:


http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
makes one want to
c=
ry.

A few:

1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
headwind
component=
..
3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
went down.
4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
precisely normal.

A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
have aileron
cont=
rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
around one
secon=
d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
airborne,
there=
's no danger of dragging a wing.

At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.


This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
With reference to the comments above:

1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)

2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.

3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
addressed:

"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"

4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
kept level is vital.

John Galloway

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:08:30 PM UTC-6, John Galloway wrote:
At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don

Johnstone wrote:





http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?

file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=

%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf



There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it

makes one want to

c=

ry.



A few:



1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.

2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt

headwind

component=

..

3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing

went down.

4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't

precisely normal.



A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely

have aileron

cont=

rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in

around one

secon=

d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once

airborne,

there=

's no danger of dragging a wing.



At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.





This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.

With reference to the comments above:



1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider

was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the

position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable

would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been

better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat

towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized

the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable

and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)



2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,

wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of

many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver

involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.

The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the

winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.

The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch

with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that

leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.



3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the

ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically

addressed:



"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller

saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed

quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider

and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to

release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"



4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be

kept level is vital.



John Galloway

I'm not basing this entirely on the AAIB report - I can read between the lines and I have other sources. No, the AAIB didn't address those issues although they certainly should have.

Instead, they ignored a wealth of obvious facts and blamed the accident on the release position which has worked just fine in literally millions of releases. Even so, if the owner, or a maintenance shop, thought there was a problem, adding a flexible release extension is SOP. Such an extension is even shown in Figure 5 with the release T-handle BEHIND the stick. Figure 6 showing a 'pilot' with his RIGHT hand blocked from reaching a release is grossly misleading. I hope the AAIB doesn't risk its reputation by presenting this argument in court.

Independent sources the glider was not pointing at the winch and, John, even you suggest that's acceptable. I say the rope must be dead straight and the glider pointed exactly at the winch - no exceptions. This accident is a great example of why.

I've been officially involved in very similar accidents where the launch crew had far less time yet DID stop a launch in time to save a pilot who failed to release. Your crew had plenty of time to stop the launch. If the signaling system didn't permit such a timely signal, that's yet another problem that needs to be addressed.

Clearly the acceleration was VERY slow and the wing did drag so the roll was wobbly. Rolling 29m (95 feet) into a 15 knot headwind component proves it. A dry N3 with flaps set for winch launch lifts off below 33 knots so with the headwind, the winch only had to add 18 knots which requires less than one G for less than one second over a distance of less than 20 feet.

All winches, even a Skylaunch, have throttles so the phrase "very powerful rapidly accelerating winch" is meaningless. Acceleration depends only on the throttle setting.

So, what could have prevented this accident?
In order of importance:

1. Faster acceleration. Get a glider airborne and climbing before a wing can drop.

2. Insist every launch have the rope exactly straight and the glider pointed exactly at the winch.

3. Better communications. Maybe someone at the launch point should have a thumb hovering over a button that lights a big, bright "EMERGENCY STOP" sign in the winch cab. Better yet, have that button trigger the guillotine.

This accident report will serve as a classroom example for many years including a "can you find the screw-ups?" exercise. If you suspended the Imperial arrogance long enough, you might hear the groans and forehead slapping from the Continent and around the world - and if you listened to what they're saying you might start improving your miserable accident record.

At 20:08 06 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:


http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
makes one want to
c=
ry.

A few:

1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
headwind
component=
..
3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
went down.
4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
precisely normal.

A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
have aileron
cont=
rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
around one
secon=
d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
airborne,
there=
's no danger of dragging a wing.

At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.


This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
With reference to the comments above:

1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)

2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.

3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
addressed:

"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"

4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
kept level is vital.

John Galloway

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up
with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom and
requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a month
back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the glider
was written off.
What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this earth
is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to
mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.