Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,
wrote:
The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
life=
,
to me that is a complete no brainer.


Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
everyo=
ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
t=
ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
don=
't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
diffe=
rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
rel=
ease during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

At 16:16 07 October 2013, wrote:
The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
life=
,
to me that is a complete no brainer.


Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
everyo=
ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
t=
ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
don=
't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
diffe=
rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
rel=
ease during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:24:08 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the stick
full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not actually
have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem and
react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than the
time you have.

If reaching the release is difficult, it gets an extension installed ASAP. (That a minor modification not requiring paperwork.) The really bonehead action is to continue flying a glider where the pilot can't reach the release. does that idea actually occur to anyone in the UK?



Actually the glider should point down the direction if the initial cable
run, of course that should be the same as the direct line to the winch.

Only the UK still seems to be using steel cable. Almost everyone else is using "plastic rope" (Dyneema) Plastic rope straightens out like a bowstring as soon as tension is applied so it's always in a "direct line to the winch" which means POINT THE GLIDER AT THE WINCH - NO EXCEPTIONS.


Not so, anyone with any experience of winch launching would know that the
time taken for a stop signal to be sent, received by the winch driver and
reacted on is way more than the time taken for the event you are trying to
prevent being over.

No one suggests the pilot shouldn't pull the release. But, clearly, in the case of the UK, that isn't working. You need a backup plan to stop the launch if the pilot doesn't act.

Wing drop is not the cause of the problem, it is a symptom. The primary
problem is yaw and increased acceleration will exacerbate this.

WHAT!! Acceleration causes wing drop? Causes yaw? That's as absurd as it gets.

To a certain extent this type of accident is an operating hazard.

In aviation safety, this is one of the hazardous thought processes called "resignation".

Again, no one says a pilot shouldn't have a hand on the release and should pull it if the launch goes wrong but a fair question is, "How's that working out?"

Giving a skilled observer at the start point an option to instantly stop the launch if the pilot doesn't act would have saved this pilots life. FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT! Or, just ask the Germans.

The totally absurd aspect of this is the UK is has a longstanding problem with "cartwheel" accidents like this one. A problem not seen to anywhere near the same degree in the rest of the world. Yet, your response it to lecture everybody else on doing it your way.

At 17:34 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:24:08 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the
stick
full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not
actually
have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem
and
react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than
the
time you have.

If reaching the release is difficult, it gets an extension installed
ASAP.
=
(That a minor modification not requiring paperwork.) The really bonehead
a=
ction is to continue flying a glider where the pilot can't reach the
releas=
e. does that idea actually occur to anyone in the UK?


I wish it were that simple. A change of this nature, to a critical control,
requires approval from EASA which in turn requires the TC Holder to
approve.
In all the gliders I fly I use a paracord loop which I loop round my wrist
and the release knob. As it is a modification to my hand it does not
require EASA approval.
I am not going to bother answering the rest of your points, I feel you have
proved your ignorance sufficiently.
As far as the UK is concerned starting a winch launch with the hand on the
release is not optional. As I have said before doing it can save your life,
it is a complete no brainer.

At 20:08 06 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:


http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
makes one want to
c=
ry.

A few:

1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
headwind
component=
..
3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
went down.
4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
precisely normal.

A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
have aileron
cont=
rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
around one
secon=
d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
airborne,
there=
's no danger of dragging a wing.

At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.


This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
With reference to the comments above:

1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)

2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.

3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
addressed:

"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"

4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
kept level is vital.

John Galloway

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up
with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom and
requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a month
back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the glider
was written off.
What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this earth
is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to
mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.

Not a single instructor, check pilot or examiner I flew with in England and Germany ever suggested/required holding the release on a winch launch. I was always told to keep my hand close, but not wrapped around the knob.

Worked well every time.

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:54:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Pitts wrote:
Not a single instructor, check pilot or examiner I flew with in England and Germany ever suggested/required holding the release on a winch launch. I was always told to keep my hand close, but not wrapped around the knob.



Worked well every time.

I think "touching but not gripping" is the best advice.

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this
type of
Which is? Come on, lets hear it Bill! BTW it is not always
possible to launch straight into wind due to the layout of some
glider sites. Wing drops are usually caused by gusts, which are
usually not predictable. The only safe way of dealing with them
is to release as soon as the wing starts to drop and before it
touches the ground. Releasing under tension often requires a
good firm pull, so a good firm grip on the release knob (or an
extension cable if necessary) is essential.

Derek Copeland


accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one
has come up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why
the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my
club a month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but
the glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on
this earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early
release, to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone
else has.

Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.