Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,
wrote:
The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
life=
,
to me that is a complete no brainer.


Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
everyo=
ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
t=
ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
don=
't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
diffe=
rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
rel=
ease during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

Yes, it is OK to do that. I've done it a dozen or some times when the tow pilot came to retrieve me and there wasn't anyone to run the wing. It's never been a problem for me, even with a CG equipped ship.

-John, Q3


On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:30:59 PM UTC-4, John Marsh wrote:
Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy

On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 18:30:59 +0000, John Marsh
wrote:

Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY

Depends on the glider.
For probably 95 percent of the gliders you are correct.

But for instance the AS 22-2 (forerunner if the ASH-25) has absolutely
no aileron control on the first 200 ft of the ground roll, so in most
cases it drops a wing. Since it is usually flown with full water , the
wing tip hits hard and it takes some time to pick the wing up again.

On the other hand, it's got a a tail load of about 120 lbs on the tail
wheel, so it doesn't have the slightest tendency to ground loop.
And with a wing loading of 10.5 lbs / sqft it's not going to take of
inadvertedly either.

So during an aerotow it is possible and safe to pick up the wing
again. In this special glider.

Winch launch is a completely different animal though.

Cheers
Andreas

On Monday, October 7, 2013 12:30:59 PM UTC-6, John Marsh wrote:
Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo

tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on

the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,

wrote:

The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your

life=

,

to me that is a complete no brainer.



Lol, Love your enthusiasm John. I promise it is possible to use the release lever without having to hold on to it the entire tow and put yourself in possible danger of an inadvertent release. Of course you release if you drop a wing and can't raise it safely on aero tow. That doesn't mean you need to keep your hand on the thing. In my glider (ASW27) I have my hand on the spoiler to start and then move to flaps and then move to my knee so it is close to the release in case I need to pull early. I can move the hand to the release at any point.

Bruno - B4

At 16:16 07 October 2013, wrote:
The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
life=
,
to me that is a complete no brainer.


Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
everyo=
ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
t=
ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
don=
't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
diffe=
rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
rel=
ease during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:24:08 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the stick
full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not actually
have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem and
react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than the
time you have.

If reaching the release is difficult, it gets an extension installed ASAP. (That a minor modification not requiring paperwork.) The really bonehead action is to continue flying a glider where the pilot can't reach the release. does that idea actually occur to anyone in the UK?



Actually the glider should point down the direction if the initial cable
run, of course that should be the same as the direct line to the winch.

Only the UK still seems to be using steel cable. Almost everyone else is using "plastic rope" (Dyneema) Plastic rope straightens out like a bowstring as soon as tension is applied so it's always in a "direct line to the winch" which means POINT THE GLIDER AT THE WINCH - NO EXCEPTIONS.


Not so, anyone with any experience of winch launching would know that the
time taken for a stop signal to be sent, received by the winch driver and
reacted on is way more than the time taken for the event you are trying to
prevent being over.

No one suggests the pilot shouldn't pull the release. But, clearly, in the case of the UK, that isn't working. You need a backup plan to stop the launch if the pilot doesn't act.

Wing drop is not the cause of the problem, it is a symptom. The primary
problem is yaw and increased acceleration will exacerbate this.

WHAT!! Acceleration causes wing drop? Causes yaw? That's as absurd as it gets.

To a certain extent this type of accident is an operating hazard.

In aviation safety, this is one of the hazardous thought processes called "resignation".

Again, no one says a pilot shouldn't have a hand on the release and should pull it if the launch goes wrong but a fair question is, "How's that working out?"

Giving a skilled observer at the start point an option to instantly stop the launch if the pilot doesn't act would have saved this pilots life. FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT! Or, just ask the Germans.

The totally absurd aspect of this is the UK is has a longstanding problem with "cartwheel" accidents like this one. A problem not seen to anywhere near the same degree in the rest of the world. Yet, your response it to lecture everybody else on doing it your way.

At 17:34 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:24:08 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the
stick
full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not
actually
have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem
and
react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than
the
time you have.

If reaching the release is difficult, it gets an extension installed
ASAP.
=
(That a minor modification not requiring paperwork.) The really bonehead
a=
ction is to continue flying a glider where the pilot can't reach the
releas=
e. does that idea actually occur to anyone in the UK?


I wish it were that simple. A change of this nature, to a critical control,
requires approval from EASA which in turn requires the TC Holder to
approve.
In all the gliders I fly I use a paracord loop which I loop round my wrist
and the release knob. As it is a modification to my hand it does not
require EASA approval.
I am not going to bother answering the rest of your points, I feel you have
proved your ignorance sufficiently.
As far as the UK is concerned starting a winch launch with the hand on the
release is not optional. As I have said before doing it can save your life,
it is a complete no brainer.

At 20:08 06 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:


http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
makes one want to
c=
ry.

A few:

1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
headwind
component=
..
3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
went down.
4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
precisely normal.

A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
have aileron
cont=
rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
around one
secon=
d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
airborne,
there=
's no danger of dragging a wing.

At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.


This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
With reference to the comments above:

1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)

2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.

3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
addressed:

"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"

4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
kept level is vital.

John Galloway

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up
with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom and
requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a month
back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the glider
was written off.
What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this earth
is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to
mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.

Not a single instructor, check pilot or examiner I flew with in England and Germany ever suggested/required holding the release on a winch launch. I was always told to keep my hand close, but not wrapped around the knob.

Worked well every time.

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:54:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Pitts wrote:
Not a single instructor, check pilot or examiner I flew with in England and Germany ever suggested/required holding the release on a winch launch. I was always told to keep my hand close, but not wrapped around the knob.



Worked well every time.

I think "touching but not gripping" is the best advice.