Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

My LAK-17a has wheels like the first picture in this link:
http://www.williamssoaring.com/catal...ane-parts.html

They work great on pavement, but are useless on grass.


"Soartech" wrote in message
...
JC wrote:
The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips,
or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then
either drops off or retracts into the wing.

Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate wheels on
the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching the runway.
Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your life).
As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often use a 3
wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing level until it
flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane into a cart
so this won't work for us. :-)

Long grass or other vegetatation, and rough surfaces of any
kind can make ground loop or cartwheel type winching accidents
more likely. Small wingtip wheels are probably more likely to
snag in grass than skids.

BTW, UK winch launches using modern high powered winches
give the much the same acceleration as German or anybody
else's winch launches. 0-50 knots in about 3 seconds to give
almost immediate aileron control. Any faster than this produces
additional problems, particularly tail-banging, dangerous over-
rotation with the risk of a stall/spin, and pilots sliding back in
sailplane types with very reclining seats. N.B. always do your
straps up as tightly as possible for winch launching.

Derek Copeland

At 23:44 09 October 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
My LAK-17a has wheels like the first picture in this link:
http://www.williamssoaring.com/catal...ane-parts.html

They work great on pavement, but are useless on grass.


"Soartech" wrote in message
news:facbc642-bebd-4794-a53b-
...
JC wrote:
The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on
the
wingtips,
or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25
mph and then
either drops off or retracts into the wing.

Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate
wheels on
the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching
the runway.

Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your
life).
As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often
use a 3
wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing
level until it
flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane
into a
cart
so this won't work for us. :-)

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 8:44:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Time for pogo sticks.



The idea of launching a glider by having someone run the wing originated with wooden gliders and quite low speeds for stall and aileron effectiveness. Those speeds have gradually crept up through the years, to the point that really nobody can run the wing of a modern glider, with waterballast, and anything less than 10 mph straight down the runway, to the point of aileron effectiveness. Mostly we hope that the wing runner lets go, with the aircraft in balanced position, and it picks up speed faster than one wing drops.. That often isn't true.



For airtows the results are usually just some scraped gel coat; sometimes a collision with a runway light, and occasionally a ground loop. There have been accidents where wing down gliders hurt bystanders, the Tonopah 15 m nationals being the one I remember best.



Clearly, for winching, wing-down events are much more serious.



The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips, or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then either drops off or retracts into the wing.



Reading the UK Nimbus 3 report, it would seem that a video link between winch driver and launch point would be a good idea, and quite cheap with current technology. It would cut a crucial second or so out of the abort-the-launch loop



John Cochrane

John, wing-down events are indeed more serious for winch launch simply because of the CG hook and the large amount of energy being delivered to the glider by the winch. The best solution is one where wing drops don't happen at all - or are least extremely unlikely.

It's true that modern, heavy gliders have minimum aileron control speeds much higher than a wing runner can reach. Just as with aero tow, slow acceleration leaves a glider vulnerable to a wing drop. As with aero tow, reaching minimum control speed quickly is a very good thing.

The time for a glider on winch launch to reach aileron control speed from a standstill (Anywhere except the UK) is a second or less so how can a wing drop in that interval? Even in a crosswind, a glider can be balanced laterally so if the wing tip is simply released it will take two or three seconds for it to drop. Something has to cause it to drop or it won't happen.

A rare problem is a pilot unintentionally holding aileron input at the start of the roll. Control authority comes on fast that a wing may go down before a pilot realizes his error and backs off the aileron input. The solution is being careful to neutralize the ailerons before the roll starts.

Also rare (Again, outside the UK) is mis-aligned staging which results in the rope pulling the glider slightly sideways. This can start a wing down before aileron control speed is reached. The solution is to be careful to stage the glider so it points at the winch.

Strong gusts can be problem but the longer a glider wobbles along with minimal control authority, the greater the vulnerability to them.

Wing runners should be re-trained from what they learned with aero tow. Any attempt to hold on will be disastrous so they need to do a very "clean" release. They must also learn the art of balancing the wing rather than just holding it sort of level. They won't so much "run" the wing as take a very quick step or two.

Video is under serious consideration. As you say, a CCTV link is very cheap as are all sorts of data-links. I think one of the best uses is a simple data-link to send a "STOP" message to the winch operator. That message could be displayed in .2 seconds from when an observer at the launch point first sees a launch starting to go wrong and the rope cut with the guillotine in another .2 seconds stopping the launch.

Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

Useful document on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...ingleaflet.pdf

Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:59:50 AM UTC-6, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.



On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:

Hi Justin,



I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels

gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an

expert.



I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most

certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part

somewhat ironic.



Terry Walsh











At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:

Bill,



I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what

authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are

so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who

have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.



If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your

opinions

to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I

will bow to your superior judgement.



Regards,



Justin





At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:



All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of



accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come

up



with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom

and



requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand



should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a

month



back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the

glider



was written off.



What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this

earth



is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,

to



mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.







The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.















What's ugly is death caused by incompetence.

Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, however
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have not
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you are
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread was
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as long
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Queen
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

Well said Justin & likewise I wish no association to arrogant behaviour and

rude postings about a persons origin, place of residence or physical
defining
features.

I value people's opinions even when I believe they are incorrect or
significantly misaligned with factual evidence, it's what allows me to take
a
balanced view on a subject.

I get particularly hacked off when people of 'authority' belittle genuine
effort
that is conducted by a few for the benefit of many others, especially when

those few give so much of their time in trying to address significant
safety
issues which affect us all.

If the evidence really does show that BGA winch launching incidents are now

reduced from double to a single magnitude worse than our German
counterparts then well done guys - let's keep on going with reducing it
further!

Bill - please take this in the spirit that it is intended, as I have never
met you
and only know of you what you post here. But your attitude does remind me
of the "shouty" instructor syndrome that we have tried very hard to
eradicate
in the country that I fly in - an unhelpful and dangerous position of
authority
that needs to be banished to history.

Proactive positive teaching is required here, not reactive dismissive
comment.
I truly believe the BGA initiatives are pushing hard with the former and
long
may this continue.

Must go as I need a cup of tea and they are about to play God save the
Queen at closedown on the Beeb.

Imperial, my arse (ass).

GG



At 19:35 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, howeve
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have no
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you ar
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread
wa
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as lon
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Quee
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhap
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professional
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in th
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone
wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this typ
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has
come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why th
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early
release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

Fred,

I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenting
that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other
opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. Since he had
mentioned imperial arrogance I found this ironic.

I do agree with his statement that accidental death is ugly whether caused
by incompetence or any other reason.

Terry Walsh


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.