Use of Flaps in the Pattern

No reason not to have the right flap setting for the speed up until you are
lined up on the approach, then (assuming you are flying below the 'L' flap
speed) applying landing flap and modulate the approach with brakes - at
least that's what I did when I had a Ventus CT, in either span
configuration. In extremely rough conditions (e.g. below rotor at a wave
site) I left flaps in zero and approached faster, accepting a higher
touchdown airspeed.

If high on the base leg, use brakes to turn final at an appropriate
height.

Come to think of it, I do the same in the ASH25 I fly at present.

I'd be interested to hear a justification to do anything different.

At 20:51 13 October 2013, wrote:

Dave,
I wonder about the use of positive flaps in my Ventus C during downwind
and
base legs.
Dan

Why is the final turn "dreaded"? I find that THE most rewarding part of the
pattern!

I fly a LAK-17a which has flaps and upper surface spoilers/dive brakes. I
have 5 flap positions ranging from -1, 0, 1, 2, and L. Minus 1 is for high
speed cruise, zero is for normal cruise, 1 and 2 are for thermalling, though
there's not much difference in climb, only drag, and 3 is for landing.

It's very hard to slow my ship down from final glide since I'm very
conservative until there's no doubt that I've got the airport made, but I
usually accomplish slowing down with a climbing turn to below the white arc
on the airspeed indicator and then put flaps down to 1 as I enter downwind.
I progressively lower flaps to L (landing) and, just before beginning a
descending 180 to landing, I extend the gear and then open the dive brakes.
I hold a relatively constant airspeed by varying dive brake extension as I
maintain my aim point. I usually roll out on final over the numbers at
about 50 feet and gently modulate pitch and dive brake to achieve my
touchdown point.

On rollout, I relax the dive brakes and keep the flaps down to make it
easier to roll on the main tire. When my stopping point is assured (a wide
taxiway clear of the runway), I move flaps to -1. The tail comes down and
aileron control is improved as I roll to a stop. Dive brakes are now
ineffective and, since my wheel brake is on the stick grip, I leave the dive
brake handle alone.

Of course, your ship will have its own requirements.

wrote in message
...
I wonder how other pilots of flapped ships are using their flaps. I don't
use any flap till I am aligned with the runway on final approach. Don't like
the sluggish aileron control and the forward stick pressure required on the
dreaded base to final turn. I switch to positive flap on final. Any comments
?
Dan G

Hi, I hope your glider has a trim control, as that should be used to trim
off any unnecessary stick pressure after each change of configuration or
speed. You should not need to push the stick on the base/final turn.


At 23:56 12 October 2013, wrote:
I wonder how other pilots of flapped ships are using their flaps. I don't
u=
se any flap till I am aligned with the runway on final approach. Don't
like=
the sluggish aileron control and the forward stick pressure required on
th=
e dreaded base to final turn. I switch to positive flap on final. Any
comme=
nts ?
Dan G

On Saturday, October 12, 2013 5:56:00 PM UTC-6, wrote:
I wonder how other pilots of flapped ships are using their flaps. I don't use any flap till I am aligned with the runway on final approach. Don't like the sluggish aileron control and the forward stick pressure required on the dreaded base to final turn. I switch to positive flap on final. Any comments ?

Dan G

I fly my Mini Nimbus with the full thermal flap setting in the pattern at 60 knots always. Good control and plenty of speed turning final, using the trailing edge dive brakes as needed throughout the entire landing cycle. When on final, same thing, adding landing flaps if and as needed. Ground roll-out is with the trailing edge dive brakes off, using the effective wheel brake to modulate speed and to stop. I usually fly a higher, extended pattern than most and set up a fairly long final.

Why would you want thermal flap downwind in a 20?

Thermal flap makes it a little less slippery in the pattern. Gives a little better visibility out the front. I generally use landing flap on final so the transition is not quite so large. Glider handles just fine so far as I can tell. Not a big deal either way.

Glider is a b with winglets. I prefer landing with full flaps. Glider lands better, and the rollout is easier.

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 10:56:00 AM UTC+11, wrote:
I wonder how other pilots of flapped ships are using their flaps. I don't use any flap till I am aligned with the runway on final approach. Don't like the sluggish aileron control and the forward stick pressure required on the dreaded base to final turn. I switch to positive flap on final. Any comments ?

Dan G

My weapon of choice is a PIK 20B. Usual circuit procedure is neutral flap on downwind with speed trimmed for wind conditions expected on final. Base leg is diagonal,requiring an approx. 135 degree turn onto final. This maintains an excellent view of the landing area. Half-way down base I select 30 deg flap, maintaining selected airspeed, which provides an extra margin over stall speed in the final turn. On final I increase (or vary) flap setting to control descent rate as appropriate, never going below 30 degrees unless speed is at least 60 kts. Usually select -8 as soon as possible after touch-down to improve aileron authority. The process has worked very well during 2500 hrs in the ship.

At 00:13 14 October 2013, wrote:
On Sunday, October 13, 2013 10:56:00 AM UTC+11,
wrote=
:
I wonder how other pilots of flapped ships are using their flaps. I
don't=
use any flap till I am aligned with the runway on final approach. Don't
li=
ke the sluggish aileron control and the forward stick pressure required
on
=
the dreaded base to final turn. I switch to positive flap on final. Any
com=
ments ?
=20
Dan G

I flew an ASW17 (Big ASW20) for many years and have flown other flapped
gliders. I have used 1 stage positive on the downwind leg where I needed to
have a clearer view to the front and below or where I was forced to fly a
circuit close in to the airfield. I did not pull stage 2 or 3 until I was
certain to make the landing area. Having to reduce flap is not something
that is very pleasant. Where flying a wide circuit in non busy situations
or where there was significant turbulence I would not use any flap until
the final approach. I do not think there is a right and wrong method, both
are equally valid. Neither the 17 or 20 had any significant trim change
with the application of flaps in my experience.
I also flew a Kestrel which had a land flap completely separate from the
flying flap system. I definitely did not use any land flap until I was
absolutely certain I was going to make the landing area, people who have
flown Kestrels will understand why.

I had a Ventus C and logged about 380hours in it.

My memory is that it had 4 settings in positive, 1, 1.5, 2, and L however, i may be wrong about the 1.5.


At my home field I would almost always set flaps in the 1, 1.5, or 2 at start of downwind and leave them there until stopped (setting depended on wind.. Higher winds=1 because of turbulance near that ground at our field.)

The spoilers on the Ventus C are massivily effective and not using "L" still gave me more than enough glide path control. I did, of course use "L" for practice many times. However, in the entire time I owned it, I used "L" in an actual "non-practice" landing maybe twice.

I, like you, just didn't think the loss of roll control was a fair tradeoff when I had more than enough glidepath control in hand.

Also, for background you should know that I fly almost exclusively cross-country for about 150-170hr/year and average 2 landouts/yr.

Terry

On Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:56:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I wonder how other pilots of flapped ships are using their flaps. I don't use any flap till I am aligned with the runway on final approach. Don't like the sluggish aileron control and the forward stick pressure required on the dreaded base to final turn. I switch to positive flap on final. Any comments ?

Dan G

Depends greatly on the glider doesn't it? On my ASH26E (and I believe the 25 and 27 also) Landing flaps droop the inboard flaperon further, but raise the outboard aileron back to about neutral. I don't notice any loss in roll control. The increase in washout makes the glider very stable in this configuration, and also seems to make the spoilers more effective (due to increased loading on the inboard wing). I fly the pattern in thermal flap setting, the pull it back to L usually on base or the turn to final, depending on wind. The only reason I have to fly the downwind in thermal is lower stall speed, and smaller change to L on final.

On the PIK D78 that I use to fly, Landing flaps were a modest angle (not the near 90 degrees of the earlier PIKs). Roll control was reduced a little, but not excessively. I did reflex them on roll out as they lost effectiveness as speed decayed - never have to think about that with the Schleicher system.

Those of you who don't use landing flaps when landing: Would you if you were trying to fit into a tight out landing? and would you then have enough practice to be confident?