Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

On Friday, January 24, 2014 5:39:10 PM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
I've always preferred a finish gate for one big reason - it drastically decreases "clockwatching" while approaching the finish, allowing more time for looking out and finding/avoiding conflicting traffic while planning how to merge into the pattern. And since you knew that you could finish either high or low, you could have a plan for each case; if high and in traffic, stay high; if alone, push over and finish fast and low; if really low, call a rolling finish and squeak in. Done all of them, and never worried about losing points by being too low, or trying to ooch over an invisible line in the sky...



Now with flarm, getting surprised by someone at the finish should be rare..



I do see the potential problem of a lot of finishers at the same time at a small field - which is where a cylinder makes sense to give everyone time (altitude) to sequence for landing.



But at a big field with lots of landing room - perhaps some brave CDs should try some gate finishes (perhaps tied to -gasp! - a speed task) and see how pilots like it.



kirk

66

That's an interesting point Kirk.

For those airports with one runway and you can't land a bunch of gliders line-abreast, I've been thinking about the new GP start (BTW - thanks to BB for coming up with an elegant and flexible approach to make that happen). Judging from observations of GP contests it seems like you might end up with most of a class finishing in a narrow time window (start as a gaggle, fly the task as a gaggle, finish as a gaggle). What do you think is a reasonable amount of altitude buffer to allow, say 12 gliders to land within a few minutes on a single runway? Do we need to abide by the "one airplane on the runway at a time" rule or do people land in formation like the Thunderbirds (notice I didn't say Blue Angels)?

9B

On Friday, January 24, 2014 7:53:34 PM UTC-6, wrote:

For those airports with one runway and you can't land a bunch of gliders line-abreast, I've been thinking about the new GP start (BTW - thanks to BB for coming up with an elegant and flexible approach to make that happen). Judging from observations of GP contests it seems like you might end up with most of a class finishing in a narrow time window (start as a gaggle, fly the task as a gaggle, finish as a gaggle). What do you think is a reasonable amount of altitude buffer to allow, say 12 gliders to land within a few minutes on a single runway? Do we need to abide by the "one airplane on the runway at a time" rule or do people land in formation like the Thunderbirds (notice I didn't say Blue Angels)?

Well, if the runway is wide enough, and everyone stays heads-up, you should be able to put a bunch down as long as everyone lands long. Alternate sides and roll out as far as you can. If I know it's going to be crowded and (via flarm or 4 mile calls) i'm in the middle of the pack, I'm going to look for a pretty high finish! If I'm in front then I'm going to speed up and fly a short fast pattern and land real long. But we should be able to land with about 200' spacing (tow-rope length) as long as everyone goes long and easy on the brakes, and keeps to their side of the runway. First guy holds 60 knots until in the flare and everybody follows at the same speed.

Kirk

On Friday, January 24, 2014 6:49:25 PM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2014 7:53:34 PM UTC-6, wrote:



For those airports with one runway and you can't land a bunch of gliders line-abreast, I've been thinking about the new GP start (BTW - thanks to BB for coming up with an elegant and flexible approach to make that happen).. Judging from observations of GP contests it seems like you might end up with most of a class finishing in a narrow time window (start as a gaggle, fly the task as a gaggle, finish as a gaggle). What do you think is a reasonable amount of altitude buffer to allow, say 12 gliders to land within a few minutes on a single runway? Do we need to abide by the "one airplane on the runway at a time" rule or do people land in formation like the Thunderbirds (notice I didn't say Blue Angels)?



Well, if the runway is wide enough, and everyone stays heads-up, you should be able to put a bunch down as long as everyone lands long. Alternate sides and roll out as far as you can. If I know it's going to be crowded and (via flarm or 4 mile calls) i'm in the middle of the pack, I'm going to look for a pretty high finish! If I'm in front then I'm going to speed up and fly a short fast pattern and land real long. But we should be able to land with about 200' spacing (tow-rope length) as long as everyone goes long and easy on the brakes, and keeps to their side of the runway. First guy holds 60 knots until in the flare and everybody follows at the same speed.

Kirk


Okay all the "ifs" and "as long as" made me wonder about the odds of pulling that off. Would we need a procedure?

What if the first guy has minimal energy and ends up in the middle of the runway?

9B

What if the first guy has minimal energy and ends up in the middle of the runway?
9B

Certainly if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.

But we are back to having to make rules again and god forbid... graduated penalties. If we have to accept someone will thermal at 500 ft on the edge of a 1 mile finish cylinder we have to accept someone will land in the middle of the runway and cause problems for everyone else that follows.

There are solutions but we won't like them because they increase organizer overhead or infringe on our sense of liberty. The simple solutions are lots of manpower to move the offenders or some straightforward hard discipline.

Operating in confined spaces requires much higher standards and discipline. When we have to ask the question: "What if the first guy has minimal energy and ends up in the middle of the runway?", it is an acceptance that we are unable to rise to the standards because we do not have universal and effective discipline, hence the rules to attempt to overcome these deficits.

The finish can often be an over crowded place. We need high standards and discipline to operate in this environment. The alternative is to spread the field out and give everyone more time and space.

Andy Gough

On Friday, January 24, 2014 10:02:49 PM UTC-6, wrote:

What if the first guy has minimal energy and ends up in the middle of the runway?

You have to plan for that - which is why you keep extra energy in the pattern until committed to land. In this case, until the guy can hop out and get his glider off the runway, you now have 2 choices - land long (same as before, just a shorter runway to do it on) or land short (not a good choice unless you are last in the gaggle landing or are also low on energy, then probably best to land on brick one and get off runway as soon as possible - anyone following you should be able to see that soon enough to land long.

Maybe we need a Condor mission made up that simulates this situation?

Kirk

At the 2001 15 m Nationals in Uvalde, we used a finish line and had 69 gliders in the contest. I think this meets the criteria of lots of gliders and limited runway space.

I don't recall any problems recovering 69 gliders on the runway and taxiway with the line finish. Everyone was told to land long and clear the runway.. Crews were waiting at the mid-field taxiway and pulled their pilots out of the way. We crew-less pilots made sure we rolled well clear while we retrieved the car.

You don't need to simulate this, we have lots of experience with it, you just have to go back a bunch of years.

As has been said before in this thread, all it requires is discipline and organization on the part of the pilots, the organizers and the crews.

The finish line is by far my preferred finish gate. A 500 ft cylinder with speed points all the way to a rolling finish is my next favoured finish.

The concept of navigating to some point in 3D space at the edge of a cylinder with a floor for a finish requires too much head in the cockpit at the wrong time. With a line or 500 ft cylinder to the ground, the final glide can be accomplished visually within the last 5 miles and keeps the heads out of the cockpit.

Watch the reaction of this kid at the very end of this finish gate...

http://youtu.be/n3i-z2CCeCM

Wow. That sure shut everyone up.....

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:52:11 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Wow. That sure shut everyone up.....

What's your point?

Without context, that was either a perfectly judged final glide, or a really lucky rolling finish.

I've done both in the past, and squeakers are no fun, but they sure can be exhilarating! And tend to make you come in really high the next time!

And since he was over landable fields all the way in, how was this dangerous? At most places in US, this would be stupid, and wouldn't be worth the risk.

So - wanna be safe, stay high. Wanna take a chance, how much of a safety pad do you want? Too low, you are the PIC, you make the decision - land out safely, because breaking a glider is guaranteed to lose you the contest!

Don't like having to make tough decisions about final glides in order to win? Funny, I thought we were talking about racing...

Kirk
66

I was simply putting out an interesting video of an 18 yr. old kid doing a minimal energy, final glide into a rolling finish. Clearly this video is highly relevant to this thread.

I am a surprised that more RC supporters did not comment on the safety connotations of this kids final glide since it is clearly deemed unsafe and bad behavior by the RC. I am also surprised that more supporters of no MFH and less severe of a penalty did not comment in support of this kids exciting finish as what they want to do at their next contest.

I'll ask some questions this time around: Was this kids final glide decision safe or unsafe? Is successfully pulling off this kind of low finish fun or too risky? Is it a good thing for the sport of soaring or is it a bad thing? Is it good for soaring in the USA? Is it good for growing US contest participation or bad? Etc.

Here are some more "good" (US illegal) final glides:

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZpRbg80kis

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxvYMC2QvI

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-xOZ2luGZA

Sean

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:42:50 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:52:11 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Wow. That sure shut everyone up.....



What's your point?



Without context, that was either a perfectly judged final glide, or a really lucky rolling finish.



I've done both in the past, and squeakers are no fun, but they sure can be exhilarating! And tend to make you come in really high the next time!



And since he was over landable fields all the way in, how was this dangerous? At most places in US, this would be stupid, and wouldn't be worth the risk.



So - wanna be safe, stay high. Wanna take a chance, how much of a safety pad do you want? Too low, you are the PIC, you make the decision - land out safely, because breaking a glider is guaranteed to lose you the contest!



Don't like having to make tough decisions about final glides in order to win? Funny, I thought we were talking about racing...



Kirk

66