Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

Why are you coming in at 40kts? Is it perhaps because you made a bad
decision earlier in the flight and didn't stop for a climb, or were
running to hot and realized it too late? If you know you will be
uncomfortable don't fly to the minimums........


Luke

Once again, real slow.

The problem with finishes does not occur when things work out as planned, and we bash home at 100 knots. Well, yes, actually, there were plenty of brain fade after finish problems, but that wasn't the real motivation for moving things up.

And yes, every sane pilot tanks up and doesn't set out across the woods separating himself from home until he has a decent energy reserve. Nobody plans to arrive at 500 feet and 40 knots.

But, welcome to soaring. Sometimes things don't work out as planned. 20 miles out, you had Mc 3 and 500 feet. But now it's 10 miles out, you found a lot of sink, and you're down to Mc 0 and 100 feet, about 2000' AGL. It looks like a few fields ahead. Keep going? Well, there are all those great stories of hero pilots who pulled up over the fence and made it.

And now, despite all your great planning, you're 5 miles out, Mc 0 + 100 feet. 750 feet AGL. You're doing great in the contest so far. Last field below. Trees ahead. Hero stories ringing in your ears. You know they'd do it -- they've said so a hundred times. This is how contests are won, no? Are you really going to stop, with 750 feet still remaining, while the computer says you can make it?

Maybe yes. I have known a lot of pilots who made the decision to throw away a nationals in this circumstance and land. I have. I know a lot of pilots who went for it, and made it, and were heroes. I know a few pilots who went for it and did not make it.

In any case, if you do it, you are going to fly at best glide -- 53 knots, and then end up stretching the glide over the cylinder by gently slowing down to 40 knots.

Recognize that this is a very tough decision. If you just say "I won't be tempted" you are in deep, deep denial, totally fooling yourself and ripe to make the wrong decision. Think very very hard about this little coffin corner before you get there, have a set of quantitative guidelines ready. Pilots who get this right do it by knowing they will be tempted and guarding against that.

To your point, it does not matter how good your earlier decisions are, how conservatively you start your final glide. This situation will come to you sooner or later. It came to me once after leaving the last thermal 1500 feet over Mc 3. I landed one mile out, in the last good field, with everyone watching. I had 300 feet at that last field, but it was nothing but houses and powerlines to the airport.

Now, once we're honest with ourselves and realize how tough this decision is, how tempting it will be to continue, and how much going for it is part of the racing tradition and important toolkit of contest-winning pilots who aim to win nationals and worlds... How about we move the whole affair up 500 feet?

John Cochrane

snip...

How about we move the whole affair up 500 feet?



John Cochrane

Completely agree with moving it up 500 feet, in the old days, if you arrived 6 ft below the hard deck (the ground), you stayed there....

However having the 500ft floor only in the finish cylinder, with all the speed points at risk, does seem to incentivize low thermaling in an area that has high concentration of (perhaps) head down pilots. The pilot might even feel more comfortable trying to climb there due to the proximity of the airport.

Here is a suggestion, put the 500 ft hard deck out to 4 miles. Once you make your 4 mile call you are over a hard deck. You still need to come into the finish cylinder, everything remains the same, but once you fall under the 500 ft hard deck your done, join the landing traffic. If your final glide is marginal, and you think this is likely, you will want to stop and try to climb outside the hard deck, where the increased radius will help spread out the traffic.

The decision to thermal at 500ft AGL is the same at the finish sector, out on course or attempting to thermal out from a relight near the airport. It's irrelevant where this is taking place. If this is affecting finishing gliders, I suggest to move the finish up to 1000ft so that if there is really someone who is trying to thermal up at 500ft AGL, that there is enough separation that he does not affect the incoming traffic.

If you want a hard-deck 4 miles out to prevent pilots from electing bad judgement and thermalling low near the airport, then why is it okay to do so 5 miles from the finish? Or 50 miles from the finish to not land-out? I don't necessarily support the hard-deck nor am I opposed to it, but if you follow this sort of logic presented, that's a great reason to have a harddeck completely around the whole task area. The decision to thermal at 500ft is still the same decision, no matter where the pilot is.

Best Regards,
Daniel Sazhin

Or perhaps we just give the folks that are pushing for a rolling finish what they want and let Darwinism deal with them. Caveat; if you cut me off in the pattern, if I have to do evasive maneuvers to avoid you within the finish cylinder, if you jeopardize my safety in the pattern in any way, or if you jeopardize the safety of someone on the ground, then you are summarily tossed from the contest.....

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:52:32 AM UTC-8, Craig R. wrote:
Or perhaps we just give the folks that are pushing for a rolling finish what they want and let Darwinism deal with them. Caveat; if you cut me off in the pattern, if I have to do evasive maneuvers to avoid you within the finish cylinder, if you jeopardize my safety in the pattern in any way, or if you jeopardize the safety of someone on the ground, then you are summarily tossed from the contest.....


What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.

Once again, real slow.


John,

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things "real slow" to
me, the 2 brain cells I have left after beating my head against the wall
couldn't keep up with you before.

Recognize that this is a very tough decision. If you just say "I won't be tempted" you are in deep, deep denial, totally fooling yourself and ripe to make the wrong decision. Think very very hard about this little coffin corner before you get there, have a set of quantitative guidelines ready. Pilots who get this right do it by knowing they will be tempted and guarding against that.

After unsuccessful attempts to explain, due to possible brain damage, I
will be more direct;
I realize that I will be tempted, I accept it as a part of soaring, I
welcome it as a test of personal constitution.

But, welcome to soaring. Sometimes things don't work out as planned.

This is precisely what keeps me coming back. It isn't an experiment
under controlled laboratory conditions boiled down to a mathematical
formula. I fly on the good days, I fly on the bad days, each flight is a
totally different experience that feeds the dark lump of coal which
beats inside my chest.

And now, despite all your great planning, you're 5 miles out, Mc 0 + 100 feet. 750 feet AGL. You're doing great in the contest so far. Last field below. Trees ahead. Hero stories ringing in your ears. You know they'd do it -- they've said so a hundred times. This is how contests are won, no? Are you really going to stop, with 750 feet still remaining, while the computer says you can make it?

Risk management is a big part of soaring, most racing pilots aren't dare
devils, they manage the risk according to any number of factors.
Gliding is much more than the MacCready theory and technique, it's not
just numbers on a spread sheet. Knowing how to control your emotions
and distinguishing impulse from intuition are a key part of the game.

Maybe yes. I have known a lot of pilots who made the decision to throw away a nationals in this circumstance and land. I have. I know a lot of pilots who went for it, and made it, and were heroes. I know a few pilots who went for it and did not make it.


You are diluting the sport to statistics and probability. Being an
excellent pilot and a smart man you realize that, mathematically
speaking, one of the few ways for the other guy to beat you is by taking
a bigger risk. Based on your posts in this thread it appears to me that
you are trying to mitigate that possibility by changing the rules to
meet your own criteria and are using "safety" as a battling ram.

Last year one of my goals was to stop trying to beat the other guy and
just fly my own flight. As a result my enjoyment of contests has been
increased exponentially - highly recommended.

Luke Szczepaniak

On Friday, January 24, 2014 12:20:32 PM UTC-8, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:

Risk management is a big part of soaring, most racing pilots aren't dare
devils, they manage the risk according to any number of factors.

You are diluting the sport to statistics and probability. Being an
excellent pilot and a smart man you realize that, mathematically
speaking, one of the few ways for the other guy to beat you is by taking
a bigger risk.

Luke Szczepaniak

Hi Luke.

Your comment(s) made me very curious. I'd like to understand the full range of views in the community.

Two questions for you:

Is your preferred configuration no penalty structure for finishing low? Having a minimum finish height is almost entirely a safety-motivated rule.

Second, would you prefer to remove the requirement that finisher land at the home airport in order to earn speed points? This would be the next safety-motivated rule in the finish sequence.

I'm trying to figure out if you prefer not to have safety-oriented rules as a matter of principle or a matter of degree.

Thanks,

9B