Stall/spin and ground reference maneuvers

Kirk,

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.

I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10 landouts in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence once they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were interesting).

Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also interesting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options open, but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on several occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed under me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand correctly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:30:30 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 7:35:51 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult strip, too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the Navy pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling approach.

Depends. If low, yes - I'll fly whatever pattern I can to land safely. If I have more time and want to look over the landing area more, then I might fly a higher, longer pattern to give more time to pick the best place to land. Also need to be able to fly bigger patterns when sequencing behind other gliders, so all the skills need to be maintained.

I think it's important to be able to fly a "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach in gliders, so that energy can be maintained until late in the approach, and used or gotten rid of as required. Also should be able to fly an approach from just about anywhere around the intended point of landing. Always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting! Power pilots are taught to fly "stabilized approaches" because that is how you land a big airplane. Totally unnecessary in small planes, and IMO downright dangerous in gliders.

As far as watching the ASI, after reaching the TLAR point where I want to start the turn, I look just to the inside (11 or 1 o'clock) when initiating the turn, monitor the ASI for trend (glider is trimmed slightly fast), monitor the yawstring, then check how the turn is progressing, then back to ASI - yawstring - turn, etc until time to roll out. If it's a busy runway I might roll out momentarily to check the extended final, then roll back into the turn - those would be pretty aggressive rolls with lots of speed.

Kirk

Always check for that low airplane dragging it in on a long final.
JMF


At 18:08 05 March 2014, John Carlyle wrote:
Kirk,

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.=20

I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into
t=
he same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be
exc=
iting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10
landouts=
in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence
o=
nce they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were
i=
nteresting).=20

Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also
inte=
resting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options
open,
=
but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on
severa=
l occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed
un=
der me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand
correct=
ly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?=20

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:30:30 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 7:35:51 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
=20
Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult
str=
ip, too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the
Nav=
y pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling
approach.=
=20
=20
Depends. If low, yes - I'll fly whatever pattern I can to land safely.
I=
f I have more time and want to look over the landing area more, then I
migh=
t fly a higher, longer pattern to give more time to pick the best place
to
=
land. Also need to be able to fly bigger patterns when sequencing behind
ot=
her gliders, so all the skills need to be maintained.
=20
I think it's important to be able to fly a "de-stabilized"
(non-constant
=
airspeed) approach in gliders, so that energy can be maintained until
late
=
in the approach, and used or gotten rid of as required. Also should be
able=
to fly an approach from just about anywhere around the intended point of
l=
anding. Always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty
much
=
guarantees that your first landout will be exciting! Power pilots are
taug=
ht to fly "stabilized approaches" because that is how you land a big
airpla=
ne. Totally unnecessary in small planes, and IMO downright dangerous in
gl=
iders.
=20
As far as watching the ASI, after reaching the TLAR point where I want
to=
start the turn, I look just to the inside (11 or 1 o'clock) when
initiatin=
g the turn, monitor the ASI for trend (glider is trimmed slightly fast),
mo=
nitor the yawstring, then check how the turn is progressing, then back to
A=
SI - yawstring - turn, etc until time to roll out. If it's a busy runway
I=
might roll out momentarily to check the extended final, then roll back
int=
o the turn - those would be pretty aggressive rolls with lots of speed.
=20
Kirk

Yes, indeed! That was just one of several "interesting" experiences I had a that contest...

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 3:37:08 PM UTC-5, firsys wrote:
Always check for that low airplane dragging it in on a long final.

JMF

At 18:08 05 March 2014, John Carlyle wrote:
I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options
open,
but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on
severa=
l occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed
un=
der me, another time someone drove onto the field).

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:08:55 PM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.

My experience is that you can never be sure that you will be able to fly a "textbook" pattern, so better to be comfortable in a variety of situations. It's a matter of getting your glider from where it is to short final to your desired landing area, at a safe speed and altitude for the existing conditions. Patterns are guides - but one can land safely from all sorts of patterns; one can also (as we are proving) crash from "textbook" patterns.


I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10 landouts in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence once they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were interesting).


If you have the luxury of large fields and plenty of time, then setting up a "standard" pattern is always a good option - but what if you don't have those options? You may find on base that the field you picked is not landable, or the wind changes 180 degrees due to a gust front; you may be following a valley and have to suddenly land in that field on your left; or you may get back to your own field and be in a gaggle of gliders all vying for the same runway at the same time. Most of my landouts have been benign also - but I've also done a couple of final glides into fields that I couldn't see and the pattern consisted of one turn, gear & flaps down, and land. I think you have to be prepared for these kinds of eventualities, and be able to fly your glider safely when low and stressed. That takes planning and practice.


Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also interesting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options open, but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on several occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed under me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand correctly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?


Energy is the key, high and fast is nice, lower and fast is OK, but slow and low is never good until over the threshold! I see my "hot" pattern speed as a minimum and if it gets a bit high I don't worry about it - final is a fine time to decelerate and get ready to land. Again, it depends on the situation - if there are lots of gliders around trying to land, then playing off altitude and speed is a useful tool to use to get sequenced into the flow - and extra speed on final is good unless you KNOW you have to land short! If there is nothing going on and it's the last landing of the day, then a perfect, constant speed pattern is a fun challenge; but if it's a hectic arrival, I may have to maneuver aggressively to get down; then speed control is more of the "stay fast, stay fast, stay fast..." variety until the immediate problem of where to go is solved. Stall/spins make lousy pattern entries!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Kirk,

Thanks for your detailed answer. I understand what you're saying - be flexible and be prepared to do what you gotta do when you gotta do it.

I tend to make mistakes when I rush, so I try to keep ahead of the situation. During landings I do this by using the typical downwind-base-final pattern. It doesn't always work out, of course, during BFRs it's common for me to get a release on tow and hear the instructor say "where you going to land now"? That practice has helped immensely with the problems you mentioned of being in a gaggle of gliders all trying to land now, or needing to make a quick change of farmers field when the first choice had to be ruled out.

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:03:59 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:08:55 PM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.

My experience is that you can never be sure that you will be able to fly a "textbook" pattern, so better to be comfortable in a variety of situations. It's a matter of getting your glider from where it is to short final to your desired landing area, at a safe speed and altitude for the existing conditions. Patterns are guides - but one can land safely from all sorts of patterns; one can also (as we are proving) crash from "textbook" patterns.

I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10 landouts in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence once they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were interesting).

If you have the luxury of large fields and plenty of time, then setting up a "standard" pattern is always a good option - but what if you don't have those options? You may find on base that the field you picked is not landable, or the wind changes 180 degrees due to a gust front; you may be following a valley and have to suddenly land in that field on your left; or you may get back to your own field and be in a gaggle of gliders all vying for the same runway at the same time. Most of my landouts have been benign also - but I've also done a couple of final glides into fields that I couldn't see and the pattern consisted of one turn, gear & flaps down, and land. I think you have to be prepared for these kinds of eventualities, and be able to fly your glider safely when low and stressed. That takes planning and practice.

Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also interesting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options open, but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on several occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed under me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand correctly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?

Energy is the key, high and fast is nice, lower and fast is OK, but slow and low is never good until over the threshold! I see my "hot" pattern speed as a minimum and if it gets a bit high I don't worry about it - final is a fine time to decelerate and get ready to land. Again, it depends on the situation - if there are lots of gliders around trying to land, then playing off altitude and speed is a useful tool to use to get sequenced into the flow - and extra speed on final is good unless you KNOW you have to land short! If there is nothing going on and it's the last landing of the day, then a perfect, constant speed pattern is a fun challenge; but if it's a hectic arrival, I may have to maneuver aggressively to get down; then speed control is more of the "stay fast, stay fast, stay fast..." variety until the immediate problem of where to go is solved. Stall/spins make lousy pattern entries!

Cheers,
Kirk
66