Recognizing and reacting to tow plane engine failure

We always brief that a student will box the wake above 1,000' AGL. We
also prebrief steering turns for training flights. Having said that,
I've steered the tug when he was a new tuggie and having radio
problems. No problems there.

Dan Marotta

On 10/25/2014 4:52 AM, Cookie wrote:
Soooo..when practicing "box the wake" one should expect there is a good possibility to be "given" the rope. ??

Cookie



On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:

Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be
talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best
not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a
unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be
constantly recognized as such.

I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a
steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow
him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never
fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it
****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
Boggs
Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.

If you want him to turn, use the radio.

On 2014-10-25 10:52:02 +0000, Cookie said:

Soooo..when practicing "box the wake" one should expect there is a good
possibility to be "given" the rope. ??

Cookie



On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:


Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be
talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best
not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a
unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be
constantly recognized as such.


I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a
steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow
him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never
fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it
****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
Boggs

Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.

If you want him to turn, use the radio.

If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?


Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring signals"...with "use radio"?

Cookie


If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:

Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?


Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
signals"...with "use radio"?

Cookie


If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

If it's mere communication ... like wagging your wings ... that's one
thing. If it's physically pulling the tail around against the tow pllot
attempting to maintain his intended heading then that's quite another.

Its all "communication"..

But the whole point of the "turn" signal is that the tow pilot doesn't need to or try to "fight" it.

So which signals do you use radio for and which signals do you use the standard accepted signal?

Do you brief glider pilots as to which signals you do not respond to and which you do?

Has the SSA changed/adopted the accepted signal for "tow plane please turn" to now a "radio signal"?

When the tow plane rudder hits the stop, what happens? It snap rolls!!!??

Cookie





On Sunday, October 26, 2014 6:48:57 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:

Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?


Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
signals"...with "use radio"?

Cookie


If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

If it's mere communication ... like wagging your wings ... that's one
thing. If it's physically pulling the tail around against the tow pllot
attempting to maintain his intended heading then that's quite another.

On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:

Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?


Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
signals"...with "use radio"?

Cookie


If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

Btw:

Pawnee wingspan 36 ft 2 in. So out at his wingtip you are 5.5 m off
center. On a 60m rope that's 5.3 degrees angle on the rope.

If the glider weighs 600 kg and has a 30:1 L/D at towing speed then
there will be 20 kg of pull in the rope from drag, plus (at 600 fpm, 3
m/s climb and 70 knots 38 m/s airspeed) another 48 kg pull from
climbing. Total 68 kg. About 6 kg of which will be sideways pull on the
tail.

Anyone want to figure out how much rudder deflection it takes to
produce 6 kg sideways force at 70 knots? It won't be a lot.

So, you're saying the rudder won't even be near the stop on a typical box the wake, or "please turn" signal....so what's the problem?


Cookie





On Sunday, October 26, 2014 7:03:30 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:

Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?


Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
signals"...with "use radio"?

Cookie


If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

Btw:

Pawnee wingspan 36 ft 2 in. So out at his wingtip you are 5.5 m off
center. On a 60m rope that's 5.3 degrees angle on the rope.

If the glider weighs 600 kg and has a 30:1 L/D at towing speed then
there will be 20 kg of pull in the rope from drag, plus (at 600 fpm, 3
m/s climb and 70 knots 38 m/s airspeed) another 48 kg pull from
climbing. Total 68 kg. About 6 kg of which will be sideways pull on the
tail.

Anyone want to figure out how much rudder deflection it takes to
produce 6 kg sideways force at 70 knots? It won't be a lot.

On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:


Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.

Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.

T8

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:16:38 AM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:

Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.

What about a situation where the tug's vertical tail stalls due to the glider being way off to the side? If you are holding full rudder against the yaw, and the glider keeps on pulling the tail, you may stall the vertical tail - supposedly the ensuing snap roll is highly entertaining!

This situation may be more theoretical (I think the BGA had an article that mentioned it) but my technique is to let the glider pull my tail around if he really wants to. Unless wake boxing is prebriefed, I pretty much stay off the rudders and let the glider take me where he wants, if he gets out of position laterally.

Kirk
66

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 12:02:56 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:16:38 AM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:

Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.

What about a situation where the tug's vertical tail stalls due to the glider being way off to the side? If you are holding full rudder against the yaw, and the glider keeps on pulling the tail, you may stall the vertical tail - supposedly the ensuing snap roll is highly entertaining!

This situation may be more theoretical (I think the BGA had an article that mentioned it) but my technique is to let the glider pull my tail around if he really wants to. Unless wake boxing is prebriefed, I pretty much stay off the rudders and let the glider take me where he wants, if he gets out of position laterally.

Kirk
66

The release is there for real emergencies. 99+% of the time, the rudder hitting the stop momentarily is *not* an emergency.

T8