Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:25:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 1:55:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
why not have one of these:

http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/
http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....dback-systems/

'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

So? You'll never get wings-level-inverted if you are paying attention to the readout.

I'd expect that it would be rather easy to get inverted in a cloud in mountain wave.

In article ,
, son_of_flubber says...

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:25:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 1:55:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
why not have one of these:

http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/
http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....dback-systems/

'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

So? You'll never get wings-level-inverted if you are paying attention to the readout.

I'd expect that it would be rather easy to get inverted in a cloud in mountain wave.

"C"FIT is still yer biggest problem.

--
Duncan.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:24:32 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:


I'd expect that it would be rather easy to get inverted in a cloud in mountain wave.

If you hit the rotor all bets are off. But I've successfully used the instrument as my primary reference in cloud in both thermal and wave lift. S

WARNING: SIDETRACK--TANGENT--WAY OFF COURSE HERE

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:


'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

Actually it's worse than that-- the indicated turn rate (yaw rate) drops off toward zero as as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, in which case the glider is in an extreme diving corkscrew or helix...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching the instrument.

In the fully inverted case, if the G-loading is still positive-- which it will be unless you are pushing the stick forward-- you won't be inverted for long. But during those few seconds that you are, if you deviate even slightly from wings-level, then if you react to the indication of the yaw rate indicator, you'll roll the aircraft toward wings-level upright. That's a good thing! Example: inverted wings-level but positively loaded, left wing drops, glider is now in a turn toward right wingtip, instrument shows right yaw, pilot gives left roll input which is indeed the shortest path toward upright. The only problem is that as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, again the yaw rate drops toward zero...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching the instrument.

That's all a side-track. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the history of soaring includes many many hundreds or thousands of hours, collectively, of flying in clouds with the aid of a turn rate indicator and no artificial horizon.

S

This discussion is veering awfully close to transforming into this question; "Is partial-panel flight, i.e. flight in clouds with a turn rate indicator but no artificial horizon instrument, even possible?"

I think that's been settled...

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Let's not lose sight of the fact that the history of soaring includes many many hundreds or thousands of hours, collectively, of flying in clouds with the aid of a turn rate indicator and no artificial horizon.

S

In article ,
, says...

WARNING: SIDETRACK--TANGENT--WAY OFF COURSE HERE

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:


'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same
reading on this instrument.

Actually it's worse than that-- the indicated turn rate (yaw rate)
drops off toward zero as as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, in
which case the glider is in an extreme diving corkscrew or helix...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching
the instrument.

In the fully inverted case, if the G-loading is still positive-- which
it will be unless you are pushing the stick forward-- you won't be
inverted for long. But during those few seconds that you are, if you
deviate even slightly from wings-level, then if you react to the
indication of the yaw rate indicator, you'll roll the aircraft toward
wings-level upright. That's a good thing! Example: inverted
wings-level but positively loaded, left wing drops, glider is now ina
turn toward right wingtip, instrument shows right yaw, pilot gives
left roll input which is indeed the shortest path toward upright. The
only problem is that as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, again
the yaw rate drops toward zero...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching
the instrument.

That's all a side-track. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the
history of soaring includes many many hundreds or thousands of hours,
collectively, of flying in clouds with the aid of a turn rate
indicator and no artificial horizon.

I guess the big question is, can you recover from an unusual attitude on
limited instruments (no AH). I know I can, but it requires practice.
And it's not fantastically *easy*.

If you haven't done it, get under the hood with an instructor. And did
I say it's a lot of fun? It is, great fun. Could save ya butt one day.

--
Duncan.

For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training.

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:12:46 -0700, krasw wrote:

For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH
(Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side
up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only,
but it requires some training.

I think the same definitely applies to the Dynon electronic AH and its
relations: you still need the training before trying to use it 'for
real'.

I've had some training with a Dynon (bucket over my head in an SF-25) and
find that I prefer using a partial panel, mainly because the Dynon
heading indicator is just a small box showing the heading in degrees: I
don't find it nearly as easy to scan as an analogue indicator or a ribbon
like some of the other electronic AHs provide.

Its just as well I prefer the partial panel because that is what is in my
glider and there is no space in the panel to add an AH.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Same could be said for the untrained pilot trying to use an attitude
indicator for the first time. It's very easy under a vision restricting
device in VMC. Not so much when using it successfully makes a difference.

On 4/20/2015 11:12 PM, krasw wrote:
For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training.

--
Dan Marotta

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:12:47 PM UTC-6, krasw wrote:
For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training.

A VFR pilot with no training will only survive a few seconds longer with a full gyro panel than without. The only "hardware solution" for a VFR pilot without extensive instrument training is an autopilot and even then survival would be in doubt without training.