Glider crash at Moriarty

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 10:56:44 AM UTC-7, danlj wrote:
Let's cut through the fog and quit kvetching about irrelevancies such as CAP arrogance.
406-mHz ELT or PLB: location accuracy 100 meters
ELT cost: $650+
PLB cost: $250+
(If you can afford to fly, you can afford one)
121.5 mHz ELT: location accuracy 12000 meters
ELT cost: your life

If you don't put a GPS-equipped 406 mHz ELT in your aircraft or PLB on your straps, don't complain about the CAP, your spouse, or God when you're lying broken and cold and in pain in the wreckage. Blame yourself.

References:
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_radiobeacon
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html

+ Spot/Inreach
Certain places wouldnt tow you without one, and I agree.
It is the only device which automatically send you location every 10 minutes.
ELT is the most accurate *if* it gets activated. PLB only useful if you can activate it yourself.
Bottom line, if you can afford only one device, or dont want to deal with installation, get a spot/InReach. If you can afford more, get all the devices you can afford. The more the better.

Ramy

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:18:00 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
+ Spot/Inreach
Certain places wouldnt tow you without one, and I agree.

Which places won't tow you without one?

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:56:44 PM UTC-4, danlj wrote:

406-mHz ELT or PLB: location accuracy 100 meters
ELT cost: $650+

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...406compact.php $943

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 4:26:59 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:56:44 PM UTC-4, danlj wrote:

406-mHz ELT or PLB: location accuracy 100 meters
ELT cost: $650+

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...406compact.php $943

I am pretty sure Fossett had an ELT. Imagine how quickly he could have been found with a Spot.
And I am even more sure that MH370 had an ELT...
ELT/PLBs are good addition to Spot/Inreach. But it will be totally silly to invest in those instead of Spot/Inreach.

Ramy

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:56:44 PM UTC-4, danlj wrote:

406-mHz ELT or PLB: location accuracy 100 meters
ELT cost: $650+

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...406compact.php $943


A full compliment of ELT, PLB, InReach etc.. would keep the SAR costs down (aside from the fact of finding you sooner). Has anyone ever gotten a bill for a soaring related SAR?

http://www.backpacker.com/news-and-e...ic-obligation/

Some back country areas are published that cost of SAR are at the individuals expense.
Especially during the "off season" such as the middle of winter.
Some "back country permits" are not issued without a SAR plan published and in place.
That fits more the hiker and not the flyer, unless you are flying into very remote areas, off season.

BillT

ELT measured effectiveness is less than 50% (they say 40-60%, why not be more specific?). If you are injured it may be higher because the damage is less, but not necessarily. 50% amounts "better than nothing", but not much more.

I tried inReach, only to switch back to Spot2 after spending over an hour on the phone with DeLorme to suspend service. They wanted me to do it thru the inreach so I wouldn't inadvertently cancel service, even tho I was on the phone with them!

Yeah, you could carry a Spot, Inreach, PLB, ELT, sat phone, cell phone, HAM radio, flare gun, etc., ALL ON YOUR PARACHUTE! After awhile one must reflect on how much protection you can stand. If that isn't enough maybe you should stay on the ground and go back to watching Gilligan's Island on TV.

Tom

121.5 mHz ELT: location accuracy 12000 meters

I'm not sure how to interpret this. An ELT (of any flavor) transmits a continuous signal, for as long as the batteries hold out. It can be received at a range much greater than 12 km, and can lead a searcher to within a few meters of the ELT. When an ELT signal correlates with a report of a missing pilot, a search commences promptly and continues until the crash site is located (or, possibly, until some time after the ELT signal quits).

I've been involved in 2 glider S&R missions for which a 121.5 MHz ELT signal was extremely valuable. In the first, the pilot crashed in a hard-to-access area and was killed on impact. He might still be there if not for his ELT, which continued to transmit until the crash site was located the next morning. (It's worth noting that a search - with its considerable attendant risks - continues whether or not the pilot has survived.)

The second was a successful search for a crashed (and seriously injured) glider pilot in another remote and difficult area. There's little question that his chance of survival would have been much lower without the ELT, which continued to operate for the 23 hours that he lay in the wreckage, in near-blizzard conditions.

The often-cited 50% rate of successful operation of 121.5 MHz ELTs deserves some explanation. According to an Air Force study, the four most common reasons for ELT failure a
1. Destroyed in crash
2. Destroyed in post-crash fire
3. Bad batteries
4. Improper installation
#2 should be very unlikely in a pure glider - and probably uncommon even in a motorglider. #1 and #4 can be addressed by proper installation in the area behind the cockpit, which tends to stay reasonably intact even in serious crashes. #3 is under the control of the aircraft owner. So a moderately careful glider pilot can expect his ELT to perform properly at a rate much higher than average.

AFIK, searchers an hour or two after the crash could find no SPOT, FLARM or ELT signal.

It's my understanding that all the electronics on the glider were destroyed or disabled on impact, but this will only be known for sure after the final investigation.

Mike

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:54:37 -0700, John Good wrote:

121.5 mHz ELT: location accuracy 12000 meters

I'm not sure how to interpret this. An ELT (of any flavor) transmits a
continuous signal, for as long as the batteries hold out. It can be
received at a range much greater than 12 km, and can lead a searcher to
within a few meters of the ELT.

I took that as how accurately the old satellites could locate a 121.5 Mhz
signal. Took several orbital passes.