The highly successful UK Junior XC program vs. USA's nonexistantJunior XC program. Why?

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 9:00:10 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Oh and did I mention that most of the USA has far better soaring conditions that the UK ever dreamt of......

Nonsense.

But look at what our sometimes mediocre soaring conditions do for the skill
of
the pilots flying in them...

And we don't dream, we go and fly in those conditions also :-)

At 15:00 10 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
Oh and did I mention that most of the USA has far better soaring
conditions
that the UK ever dreamt of......

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 9:27:48 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Did anyone know that the UK Junior nationals utilizes a Junior CD, manager, weather-person, etc! How brilliant! If anyone cannot see the genius behind this, I feel sorry for them.

Country size: We could divide the United States into 5 or 6 equal segments of greater population than the UK. To perform equally in terms of juniors, we would need a Junior nationals of some 350 youth pilots! Or 6 regions of 60 Juniors. Geography is not a real problem from this realistic perspective. Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers. We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially, we are a joke.

The question is what are the benefits of a vibrant Junior Cross Country (not pattern flying) program? We would not know in the USA right now because, we absolutely do not have none. We only have a few bright Juniors who are able to participate regardless of the lack of organized junior XC structure or an established junior cross country culture. They are trying to build this on their own with a Facebook page, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/USJRSoaring/

It has 63 members (including a number of adults). It should have 1500+ and 100 of them should be aiming for next years Junior National Championships (but I digress).

Imagine the Junior talent the United States would enjoy if we had 70 such kids flying their own contest every summer. Britain (1/6 the size) has a vibrant youth XC soaring (not pattern licenses) program with literally several hundred Junior pilots either involved or aiming to participate.

The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?" clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find that fact amazing.

I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious priority. Articles, reports, etc.

The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will our current leaders respond?

I look forward to seeing what happens!

Sean
7T

Hey Sean,

I wasn't using geography as an excuse for our low number of junior pilots, for the record. I do view the geographic considerations as a significant factor in mass participation at one single event, and I don't think it's a poor excuse at all, but a reality. How many kids with a high-school budget, or U.S. student loan debt can afford to travel across the country with a sailplane? Travel expenses adds several hundred if not $1000 dollars to an already expensive event.

Don't get me wrong, i wasn't trying to pessimistically detract from your vision, but add to the discussion by pointing out a relevant factor as something to think about. a junior national contest in the US will have someone travelling 1500 miles at least. In turn you came back with a 5-6 region proposal. i think all of this is constructive.

as a 28 year old, how do i say this without sounding crass?

I really like flying against younger guys and i would love to see the average age at contests take a dive. It would be great to have junior make up a large percentage of U.S. contests. under the current conditions I think it would only really happen in Club Class or US Sports class because of the cost of the gliders that can be flown reasonably. if you look at the competitor list for Lasham, MOST of them were flying inexpensive club class gliders..

At 13:27 10 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
Numerous snips
Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers.
We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now
in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially,
we are a joke.

The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are
our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do
we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our
soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most
importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?"
clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find
that fact amazing.

I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance
of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes
action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders
what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have
the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a
team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its
junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious
priority. Articles, reports, etc.

The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of
developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not
glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous
examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will
our current leaders respond? I look forward to seeing what happens!
Sean 7T

Your position in a nutshell seems to be that the decline in U.S. soaring
is directly attributable to the failure of SSA's leadership to magically
find some way of opening the flood gates for the droves of young
people anxiously waiting to become xc soaring competitors.

Being the staunch soaring competitor you are, I'm sure no one has
any hope of enlightening you to the fact that the steady decline in
soaring is the cumulative effects of a complex myriad of issues.
Which can not be turned around simply by focusing on any single
issue.

For decades I have listened to individuals rants concerning what U.S.
soaring needs. The more common are, cheaper access (more clubs), cheaper
tows (winch launches), more youth, better equipment
(particularly in clubs), better access (to public airports).
Unfortunately
even after many decades the underlying issues are as problematic as
ever. I could seriously argue that the single biggest detriment to
soaring in the U.S. has been the cumulative effects of SSA's historical
failure to work with the FAA in assuring that glider operations were a
normal inclusive part of airport operations and subsequent airport
planning. But that ship sailed a long time ago and U.S. soaring will
forever be paying the price.

But to address your specific current complaints about SSA, there is a
saying. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Rather than stand on the sidelines complaining about SSA leadership,
step up to the plate and in the next elections have a winning platform
and become a regional director. In the mean time spend less time
accusing others of their inadequacies and put that energy into clearly
developing specific detailed plans of action for successfully
implementing the changes you envision. While at the same time lobby
hard in all of the regions to convince the members that your plan is
the right plan for SSA. If you get enough of the membership on board,
they will pressure their directors to work toward that goal. If your
concept is truly credible and the masses agree. Work at establishing
work groups in each region comprised of pilots who agree with your
agenda for fixing soaring. These groups can then work at convincing
current directors of the need to implement necessary changes and eventually
if necessary eventually nominating and electing someone
more in sync with this new philosophy.

From a competition perspective, in spite of having some of the
premier soaring in the U.S.. It has been a long time since Region 12
has had yearly regional contests. Most recently there was no director
election required because the existing region 12 director was unopposed.
If your ideas can be shown to truly have merit, then it shouldn't be
difficult to persuade a group of region 12 pilots to nominate and elect a
director who supports that vision. But just jumping up and down on the
sidelines will have no impact whatsoever.

The big question is why is someone on "the sidelines" required to bring this up? Why is this not the SSAs highest priority already? What are the current leaders really focused on?

Your correct. I'm not involved in the SSA leadership. This is absolutely true. I am simply one person making a point (on RAS) about our lack of a U..S. Jr cross country culture. I say plainly that our Jrs are pattern pilots with almost zero opportunity to learn true soaring like their peers in Europe, Australia and elsewhere. I say that is a shame, an utter failure of leadership and is THE REASON why our sport is on the decline.

He who lives in a glass house (whatever the hell that means). Are you not being a "tad" dramatic? If pointing out our lack of a junior nationals in the US bothers anyone, I do not give a flying crap. Deal with it however you must.

What the SSA does about this failure is entirely up to them. Yep, it probably will result in diddly squat. Most SSA members are focused on only what directly effects them in the next 12 months (contest rules, club politics, ADSB, etc). Leaders must broader vision and stategy. Do we have effective leaders? We shall see.

As for me, fire away all you wish. Yawn.

At 13:27 10 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
Numerous snips
Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers.
We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now
in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially,
we are a joke.

The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are
our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do
we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our
soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most
importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?"
clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find
that fact amazing.

I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance
of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes
action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders
what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have
the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a
team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its
junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious
priority. Articles, reports, etc.

The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of
developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not
glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous
examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will
our current leaders respond? I look forward to seeing what happens!
Sean 7T

Your position in a nutshell seems to be that the decline in U.S. soaring
is directly attributable to the failure of SSA's leadership to magically
find some way of opening the flood gates for the droves of young
people anxiously waiting to become xc soaring competitors.

Being the staunch soaring competitor you are, I'm sure no one has
any hope of enlightening you to the fact that the steady decline in
soaring is the cumulative effects of a complex myriad of issues.
Which can not be turned around simply by focusing on any single
issue.

For decades I have listened to individuals rants concerning what U.S.
soaring needs. The more common are, cheaper access (more clubs), cheaper
tows (winch launches), more youth, better equipment
(particularly in clubs), better access (to public airports).
Unfortunately
even after many decades the underlying issues are as problematic as
ever. I could seriously argue that the single biggest detriment to
soaring in the U.S. has been the cumulative effects of SSA's historical
failure to work with the FAA in assuring that glider operations were a
normal inclusive part of airport operations and subsequent airport
planning. But that ship sailed a long time ago and U.S. soaring will
forever be paying the price.

But to address your specific current complaints about SSA, there is a
saying. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Rather than stand on the sidelines complaining about SSA leadership,
step up to the plate and in the next elections have a winning platform
and become a regional director. In the mean time spend less time
accusing others of their inadequacies and put that energy into clearly
developing specific detailed plans of action for successfully
implementing the changes you envision. While at the same time lobby
hard in all of the regions to convince the members that your plan is
the right plan for SSA. If you get enough of the membership on board,
they will pressure their directors to work toward that goal. If your
concept is truly credible and the masses agree. Work at establishing
work groups in each region comprised of pilots who agree with your
agenda for fixing soaring. These groups can then work at convincing
current directors of the need to implement necessary changes and eventually
if necessary eventually nominating and electing someone
more in sync with this new philosophy.

From a competition perspective, in spite of having some of the
premier soaring in the U.S.. It has been a long time since Region 12
has had yearly regional contests. Most recently there was no director
election required because the existing region 12 director was unopposed.
If your ideas can be shown to truly have merit, then it shouldn't be
difficult to persuade a group of region 12 pilots to nominate and elect a
director who supports that vision. But just jumping up and down on the
sidelines will have no impact whatsoever.

The big question is why is some nobody on "the sidelines" required to bring this up? Why is this not the SSAs highest priority already? What are the current leaders really focused on?

You're correct. I'm not involved in the SSA leadership. This is absolutely true. I am simply one person making a point (on RAS) about our lack of a U.S. Jr cross country culture. It strikes me as painfully obvious and critically important. I say plainly that our juniors are merely trained to be pattern pilots with almost zero encouragement or opportunity to learn true XC soaring like their peers in Europe, Australia and elsewhere. I say that is a crying shame, an utter failure of our leadership and is THE REASON why our sport is on the decline in the USA.

"He who lives in a glass house..." (whatever the hell that means). Are you not being a "tad" dramatic? If pointing out our lack of a junior nationals (or even junior cross country pilots) in the US bothers anyone, I honestly do not give a flying crap. Deal with it however you must.

What the "SSA does!" about this failure is entirely up to them. Yep, my thread here probably will result in diddly squat. Most SSA members are narrowly focused on only what directly effects them in the next 12 months (contest rules, club politics, ADSB, etc). Most SSA members and clubs are not concerned about developing junior cross country pilots at all. Leaders must have broader vision and stategy. Leaders must LEAD! Do we have effective leaders? We shall see.

As for me, fire away all you wish. Yawn. This is what I do for fun. You would not believe what I do when I am serious, trust me.

Say a teenager devotes the time and energy into becoming a junior racer in the states. Races a couple of times in nice loaned gliders, turns 18(21?) then what back to the 1-26? Backseat of the 2-33? What becomes of young adult racing pilots?

At 12:45 10 September 2015, GB wrote:
Say a teenager devotes the time and energy into becoming a junior racer
in
the states. Races a couple of times in nice loaned gliders, turns
18(21?)
then what back to the 1-26? Backseat of the 2-33? What becomes of young
adult racing pilots?

Firstly, in the UK model you are a Junior up to your 25th year. After that
I would expect you will want to assist in bringing the younger Juniors on.
Remember that the UK Junior Momentum comes largely from within.

At the ago of 26, surely you will be earning and not expect further
donations.

Perhaps a further problem is that in the UK Club structure, the clubs are
largely owned by the members, and expect a club fleet to be
competition-worthy. Maybe this structure does not exist in the US model?

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:53:06 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).

Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals. I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition? Only a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to the best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior soaring numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about truly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly question if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article, poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC skills/participation/enthusiasm in the SSA or USA?

The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior Nationals. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming months. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships with instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.

If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training program in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training, rides or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself really) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the UKs soaring community vs. our own?

The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC). Clearly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly developed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?

How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly developed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization, events and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't even have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or any have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little support.

How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic. It's simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation. XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely satisfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the UK. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite successful with their youth XC soaring programs.

What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?

What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities, and strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our glider instruction culture? Our mentorship results?

How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so amazingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US (SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"

We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor international competition results, aging demographics, etc.

Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring program bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there anything that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our lack of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at the upcoming SSA convention?

I hope this sparks a productive discussion.

Sean
7T

i think that the club class nationals has been a good start, and will continue to be important. last year we had a group of 9 pilots take a photo and everyone in it except maybe danny sorenson (how old is he?) was under 40. at least three of us were under 30, and two pilots were juniors.

this year, we had daniel, JP, and Boyd participate at the same nationals. i was there too, and i am not yet 30. that's four pilots at the same event under the age of 30. i think we are inching our way slowly in that direction.. Harris hill saw 1 18 year old kid fly two contests this year as a guest, and four others that fall into the junior category fly cross country. and two more of us between 25 and 30.

I don't disagree that we aren't doing good enough, but i see some hope! if we actively initiate a strategy for bringing up junior contest pilots, i think we will see the number grow.

one thing running against us is the geographic limitation. it looks like the farthest anyone there would have had to travel, and this is the EXTREME case, would be 500 miles.

this year i drove 1800 miles to participate, and if boyd wanted to come to the club class nat's this coming year, he'll have to drive 2740 miles. honestly, he'd probably fly and borrow a glider, but flying here still costs. i recognize that he could definitely fly a different contest, but if we are talking a junior specific contest, some would end up traveling a long way.

so i think one thing we need to learn how to overcome or deal with is the geographic aspect of mass junior participation like you describe.

this is a good discussion to have.