Another glider crash?

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
The spoiler handle hangs down from a
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise
about 90°.

The gear handle sticks straight up lower
down and rotates clockwise just enough
to get out of the stop.

AS seems to have put effort in designing
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.

There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an ASW-24. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot was pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap and spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the controls feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident like this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root cause. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right side of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

Back in my student days, some
instructors told me to look at the spoilers
on the downwind check. If you're moving
the correct handle you will see them
move.

We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2 spoilers" (determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control position and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another reason to do it.

Evan Ludeman

Once, long ago, I nearly got my hand crushed when about to attach a cable
to an ASW20 (belly-hook only). The pilot retracted the U/C when he meant
ot check the air-brakes. The Pilot concerned was a current national
champion, practicing in the glider he was about to fly in the World
Championships. He was also an experienced instructor. His day job was
Airline Captain. Schlecher's practice of putting all the levers on the
left was, in my opinion, not a good idea, it produced more problems than
does changing hands to retract the gear.

At 10:20 22 September 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
The spoiler handle hangs down from a=20
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use=20
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise=20
about 90=B0. =20
=20
The gear handle sticks straight up lower=20
down and rotates clockwise just enough=20
to get out of the stop.=20
=20
AS seems to have put effort in designing=20
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and=20
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.=20

There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an
ASW-2=
4. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot
wa=
s pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap
and=
spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the
c=
ontrols feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident
lik=
e this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root
cau=
se. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right
side=
of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

Back in my student days, some=20
instructors told me to look at the spoilers=20
on the downwind check. If you're moving=20
the correct handle you will see them=20
move.

We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2
spoilers"=
(determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control
posit=
ion and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another
re=
ason to do it.

Evan Ludeman

Of the 5 gliders I've owned, only the ASW-19b had the gear handle on the
left side. I never liked that and it's never been a problem changing
hands on the stick to lower the gear with the other gliders.

On 9/22/2015 7:31 AM, Chris Rollings wrote:
Once, long ago, I nearly got my hand crushed when about to attach a cable
to an ASW20 (belly-hook only). The pilot retracted the U/C when he meant
ot check the air-brakes. The Pilot concerned was a current national
champion, practicing in the glider he was about to fly in the World
Championships. He was also an experienced instructor. His day job was
Airline Captain. Schlecher's practice of putting all the levers on the
left was, in my opinion, not a good idea, it produced more problems than
does changing hands to retract the gear.

At 10:20 22 September 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
The spoiler handle hangs down from a=20
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use=20
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise=20
about 90=B0. =20
=20
The gear handle sticks straight up lower=20
down and rotates clockwise just enough=20
to get out of the stop.=20
=20
AS seems to have put effort in designing=20
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and=20
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.=20
There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an
ASW-2=
4. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot
wa=
s pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap
and=
spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the
c=
ontrols feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident
lik=
e this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root
cau=
se. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right
side=
of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

Back in my student days, some=20
instructors told me to look at the spoilers=20
on the downwind check. If you're moving=20
the correct handle you will see them=20
move.
We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2
spoilers"=
(determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control
posit=
ion and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another
re=
ason to do it.

Evan Ludeman


--
Dan, 5J

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:03:20 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Of the 5 gliders I've owned, only the ASW-19b had the gear handle on the
left side. I never liked that and it's never been a problem changing
hands on the stick to lower the gear with the other gliders.

As well as the ASW-20, the other common one with this arrangement is the
Pegase.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position.

Wow - a simple, elegant addition. Think I'll do the same.

P3

The green and red dots sound like a good trick. I'll check my supply of
paints.

BTW, in the LS-6 (and probably other LS gliders) the gear is pushed up
and pulled down. I thought that was pretty neat - all levers forward to
go fast, all back to slow down and land.

On 9/22/2015 10:15 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Colour vision is about the first to go when "maybe not enough O2" is a problem; depending on it may not be the best plan. The SSA sheet with the picture of a glider with gear up and down, to me is most obvious (though I have a decal with "UP" and "DOWN" as a secondary reminder.

At 17:36 22 September 2015, Dan Daly wrote:


Colour vision is about the first to go when "maybe not enough O2" is a
prob=
lem; depending on it may not be the best plan. The SSA sheet with the
pictu=
re of a glider with gear up and down, to me is most obvious (though I
have
=
a decal with "UP" and "DOWN" as a secondary reminder.


Green arrow pointing UP and Red arrow pointing DOWN
Colour and shape.

I did have the little symbol of glider with wheel down and up, while I have perfect distance vision and did not need reading glasses at that time, I could not quite make out which symbol was which. I do like the idea of a colored arrow, I will put that in my glider ( better than the red or green quarter sized paint dot). Also, a poster mentioned "unmistakable". I have experience in all aircraft except balloons, and I can tell you humility is a good quality. I have made the same mistake I have another pilot making, while wondering, how could any pilot make that mistake, question answered. Our sport is not very forgiving, so stack the odds in your favor. I now fly with a finger tip oyxgen meter. Take great pains to stay well hydrated before and during the fight. I go on o2 at 10,000 as I live at sea level. Will this keep me from screwing up? I really try to keep thinking and checking my thought process, but I have learned we can screw up and hopefully muscle memory will not fail us. Stay my fellow pilots!