Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the finish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not have this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference would be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to get parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken care off by it previous owners.

Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some negative about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it, or was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those, or some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?

Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your inputs.

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 9:28:15 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the finish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not have this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference would be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to get parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken care off by it previous owners.

Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some negative about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it, or was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those, or some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?

Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your inputs..

I've owned a PIK-20B and a couple 19's. I enjoyed and LS-1F when I flew it in the WGC.
LS flew very well. Factory support is quite good and responsive, but expensive with the owner tax. Of the 3, the LS gliders are the hardest to reliably and safely hook up controls.
PIK is very durable and strong with very good( under appreciated) performance. If it is flaps only, it is more of an effort to learn to land well, but will land very short at low energy. There is almost no support and not a lots of current knowledge on maintenance and repair with respect to materials. Forget Centrair- they are useless.
'19 is easy to fly, performs very well. Parts and support are readily available.
It is easy to sell if you decide to move up. It would be my first choice.
Good luck
UH

ASW19 best bet, still supported and pleasant and easy to fly. PIK20 best
performance when clean and dry but performance deteriorates very badly with
rain or bugs on leading edge.

At 14:56 26 October 2015, wrote:
On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 9:28:15 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the
fin=
ish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not
have
=
this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference
wou=
ld be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to
g=
et parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken
care
=
off by it previous owners.
=20
Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some
negative=
about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it,
or
=
was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those,
or
=
some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?
=
=20
=20
Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your
inputs=
..

I've owned a PIK-20B and a couple 19's. I enjoyed and LS-1F when I flew
it
=
in the WGC.
LS flew very well. Factory support is quite good and responsive, but
expens=
ive with the owner tax. Of the 3, the LS gliders are the hardest to
reliabl=
y and safely hook up controls.
PIK is very durable and strong with very good( under appreciated)
performan=
ce. If it is flaps only, it is more of an effort to learn to land well,
but=
will land very short at low energy. There is almost no support and not
a
=
lots of current knowledge on maintenance and repair with respect to
materia=
ls. Forget Centrair- they are useless.
'19 is easy to fly, performs very well. Parts and support are readily
avail=
able.
It is easy to sell if you decide to move up. It would be my first choice.
Good luck
UH

Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:48:26 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.

PAGA,
I've had my LS1-c for about 21 years now. If you questions, don't hesitate to ask.

As for performance: The easiest way to get better performance out of my LS1-c is to let a better pilot fly it! I found out that works great. Cheap, too!

Ray

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 1:24:42 PM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:48:26 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.


I would look at the DG101G before buying one of the others. If the gelcoat is original it will probably be Schwabelack which is unlikely to craze and shouldn't land you with a refinishing bill down the line. The wings are effectively the same as the ASW 19 as both are derived from the D-38. The 101 variant has a modern one piece canopy and conventional tailplane (unlike the earlier DG100s).

John Galloway

Yes please, could you tell me more about the DG-100G ELAN vs the DG-101?
The LS-1c is definitively at the top of my list, but I would look at another ASW.

Regards - Paga

At 23:11 28 October 2015, PAGA wrote:
Yes please, could you tell me more about the DG-100G ELAN vs the DG-101?
The LS-1c is definitively at the top of my list, but I would look at
another ASW.

Regards - Paga

The 101 had some minor improvements over the 100G :

- Full length forward opening canopy (vs the 100 with it's fixed front and
removable or rearward hinged back section)

- Automatic elevator connection

- Shock absorbers on the mainwheel mechanism

afaik there are no aerodynamic differences - the 100G of course already had
the fixed tailplane vs the all moving tail of the original 100.

Technically I think most DG101's are the DG101G-ELAN (which means they have
the fixed tail and were produced by the ELAN company in Slovenia).

Either of the fixed tail versions makes a very nice first glider, the 101G
is slightly nicer with the big canopy. They have very good control
authority at low speeds, nice handling, good airbrakes and reasonable
performance. Gelcoat on DG's lasts longer than some others, but of course
will not last forever and does depend on the climate and use.

The original gelcoat on our club's mid 80's DG-300 was completely shot by last year and we had it repainted. DG finish quality may have been somewhat variable. The glider was not pampered but neither was it abused. Any DG or LS that wasn't produced by DG Flugzeugbau will be subject to the annual fee but on the other hand Pacific Aerosport has provided my club with extremely good support for our two DG's (the 300 is subject to the fee, the 505 isn't).

A couple other points not already mentioned by the others with regard to the Pik-20 (though they don't address your main points of interest).

I love mine (800 hrs in it) minus it's performance in rain or with bugs (and I hate the detachable canopy on mine), but I don't recommend the Pik-20 or -20B for low-time pilots due to the very different landing approach for flapped/no-spoiler gliders. [This challenge however is also a huge selling point for those able to use them...I've had no problem clearing a fence or even a shed and landing in the first 400 ft of someone's backyard or clearing powerlines and landing very short.] I had several hundred flights before my first flight in the Pik and I think that's in the ballpark of appropriate min experience (my opinion).

If you'd like to fly fast in any ridge/wave then you'll want to look at the max rough air speed of all the gliders...the Pik has the highest (by far). Additionally, if you ever think you'll need to make a controlled, speed-limited descent (55-70 mph with the Pik at full flap setting) then the Pik is also the only one of the three that will do that for you, or conversely a max capability descent at up to ~12,0000 fpm.