Some good news

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 6:27:40 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.



In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52
whose vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor.* I
feared rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a
glider with the airspeed well within the green arc.* Yes, it's
bumpy, but maintaining control is a non-event.* Using rotor to climb
into the wave is sometimes the only way to get there.* There's a
terrific mix of up and down but, if you stay on the upwind side of
the rotor, the net is up.* You climb in rough air and then, all of a
sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate of climb increases
rapidly.* What a treat!* Having said that, I still have enough sense
not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the yellow!

I dunno.

If you stay in the green then, yeah, you won't break the glider. But I've been in Omarama rotor where it was so uncomfortable that I wanted the airspeed more like 50 or 55 knots. And then the problem was having enough aileron authority to say upright. And occasionally, less than stall speed on the clock, and all you can do is accept the low G and the nose dropping until the speed comes back a few seconds later.

Ain't it grand? Feeling Mother Nature's power. :-D

On 10/22/2015 10:08 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 6:27:40 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.



In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52
whose vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor. I
feared rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a
glider with the airspeed well within the green arc. Yes, it's
bumpy, but maintaining control is a non-event. Using rotor to climb
into the wave is sometimes the only way to get there. There's a
terrific mix of up and down but, if you stay on the upwind side of
the rotor, the net is up. You climb in rough air and then, all of a
sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate of climb increases
rapidly. What a treat! Having said that, I still have enough sense
not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the yellow!
I dunno.

If you stay in the green then, yeah, you won't break the glider. But I've been in Omarama rotor where it was so uncomfortable that I wanted the airspeed more like 50 or 55 knots. And then the problem was having enough aileron authority to say upright. And occasionally, less than stall speed on the clock, and all you can do is accept the low G and the nose dropping until the speed comes back a few seconds later.

--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 6:27:40 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.



In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52
whose vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor.* I
feared rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a
glider with the airspeed well within the green arc.* Yes, it's
bumpy, but maintaining control is a non-event.* Using rotor to climb
into the wave is sometimes the only way to get there.* There's a
terrific mix of up and down but, if you stay on the upwind side of
the rotor, the net is up.* You climb in rough air and then, all of a
sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate of climb increases
rapidly.* What a treat!* Having said that, I still have enough sense
not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the yellow!

Oh, and check out the vario action after 0:30 in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLCSpVL35Tk

A pretty tame example compared to some, but I happened to have the phone filming.

Oh, and check out the vario action after 0:30 in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DaLCSpVL35Tk

A pretty tame example compared to some, but I happened to have the phone
fi=
lming.


Bruce your US link doesn't work with our UK you tube servers. Has it got a
title I can search for?
Jim

My scariest flight experience was encountering rotor while flying an MD 500 helicopter! Was trapped in the rotor with control of the aircraft in question most of the time. I was shaken for a while after. This being the scariest event even over an inflight fire, a sudden decompression at 22K FT and flew through wing tip vortex of MD 80 on takeoff.

Have towed through rotor at Minden, was sporting but not frightening.

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 8:27:40 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.



In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52
whose vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor.* I
feared rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a
glider with the airspeed well within the green arc.* Yes, it's
bumpy, but maintaining control is a non-event.* Using rotor to climb
into the wave is sometimes the only way to get there.* There's a
terrific mix of up and down but, if you stay on the upwind side of
the rotor, the net is up.* You climb in rough air and then, all of a
sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate of climb increases
rapidly.* What a treat!* Having said that, I still have enough sense
not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the yellow!

Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2015 17:27:40 UTC+2 schrieb Dan Marotta:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.

In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52
whose vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor.* I
feared rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a
glider with the airspeed well within the green arc.* Yes, it's
bumpy, but maintaining control is a non-event.* Using rotor to climb
into the wave is sometimes the only way to get there.* There's a
terrific mix of up and down but, if you stay on the upwind side of
the rotor, the net is up.* You climb in rough air and then, all of a
sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate of climb increases
rapidly.* What a treat!* Having said that, I still have enough sense
not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the yellow!
Dan, 5J

I can assure you that there are rotors out there where you can't maintain control in a glider *at all*, even if you are spiraling with 80 kts.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

On 10/23/2015 1:26 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2015 17:27:40 UTC+2 schrieb Dan Marotta:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.

In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52 whose
vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor. I feared
rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a glider with the
airspeed well within the green arc. Yes, it's bumpy, but maintaining
control is a non-event. Using rotor to climb into the wave is sometimes
the only way to get there. There's a terrific mix of up and down but, if
you stay on the upwind side of the rotor, the net is up. You climb in
rough air and then, all of a sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate
of climb increases rapidly. What a treat! Having said that, I still
have enough sense not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the
yellow! Dan, 5J

I can assure you that there are rotors out there where you can't maintain
control in a glider *at all*, even if you are spiraling with 80 kts.

Bert Ventus cM TW


+1 on TW's observation (my own being from Boulder, CO), though I always
attempted to hold a mere ~60 knots to reduce personal/ship G loads, accepting
whatever "unusual attitude" came my way. Worked for me. Never been rolled
beyond 90-degrees/vertical (against full opposite controls) or pitched much
more than +/- 45-degrees, but when this - and you're sometimes enveloped in
utterly still air just after an impressive gust of some sort - happens
vertically close to the foothills, it's a real thrill. Apply your own versions
of understated humor to that last...

Bob W.

I sincerely appreciate all the responses and thoughts on the flight, and I think it is pretty obvious that staying high and flying downwind was the smarter choice. Without the monday morning quarterback thought process, how many pilots would actually chose to go land downwind when they still have a visible window in which to descend through? In my case, the primary window had closed to the extent that i was not comfortable going into partial IMC to try and make it down, which is why I opted for the second window which was still open, further to the south. upon arriving at this second window, i chose not to go through it, as i could not tell the altitude separation from the bottom of the clouds to the face of the mountain (mt. isolation). It was in my efforts to climb back out of this window and go downwind that i went full IMC, flew back into the valley a ways, and bailed out once below peak level.

The situation, like many, was not so cut and dry, as there were still seemingly stable (enough) options in front of me that have traditionally held in similar situations. Obviously, if completely socked in, the downwind option would have been the choice. The more challenging question, in my mind, is without knowing that the wave windows would close as you nearly approached them, do you still consider that choice to be a reckless and obvious?

On the parachute side of the house, the Parachute was a security 350, which is the aerobatic style that crosses at your waist before clipping at chest level.. I am 100% certain that the straps were attached when I entered my cockpit and began my pre-flight checks. As for what point they were removed, it was either while removing my harness to bail out, or while suspended in the tree... i have no recollection.

As T8 pointed out, there are still a great many debates on flying that day and the various events that took place, and a greater number still of opinions from the pilots. I will say that from the moment I stepped foot back at the airfield, i could not have imagined a more supportive, kind, and thoughtful group than I have experienced from the soaring community. Regardless of their opinions of my skills, decisions, or otherwise, when you actually need help, I don't believe there is a better hobby community out there than this one.

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-4, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
how many pilots would actually chose to go land downwind when they still have a visible window in which to descend through? In my case, the primary window had closed to the extent that i was not comfortable going into partial IMC to try and make it down, which is why I opted for the second window which was still open,

The key here is the primary window. That's usually the most stable, reliable one. If that sucker is closed to the point that it looks dicey, it's too late.

IMO you have two or maybe three options here. Which is best is going to be an individual call, depending on a truckload of variables. Option 1) stay in the wave and wait it out. To do this you need to be able to navigate the wave without reference to ground. That's a little tricky, trickier the stronger the wind. Don't forget your compass -- it's really easy to get screwed up on directions with GPS when wind speed and airspeed are about the same. Option 2) Head downwind or crosswind to clearer skies and an airport..

I like option 1. Option 2 can be selected any time. Option 1 means I don't have to rush.

A great thing to do if you can make option 1 work is start working your friends for wx info: specifically, what's the area forecast say is going to happen? What's radar show? What's the satellite show? If it's truly hopeless, your friends will figure it out and then you can think about options (restaurants in Portland are said to be pretty good :-0) and get a plan. Otoh, it's probable that what closed the window was a slug of localized precip that will pass and then life may get good again (it takes a lot of moisture to close the primary).

There's a third option available too, although it's a little hard to see why this one would ever be preferred, but I think it's still better than trying to force your way down a hole when it looks nearly hopeless. Option 3) navigate by GPS to a better area (i.e. away from big piles of granite), then let down via benign spiral or gyro instruments somewhere you can be convinced (for instance by AWOS or a PIREP from the ground) that cloud base is well above ground and that your very cold glider isn't going to pick up a truckload of ice from rain showers below or something like that.

Looking forward to seeing you at Mt Washington again!

best regards,

-Evan Ludeman / T8

A side note about Parachutes and their harnesses. My local rigger once told me to get into a strict regimen of always buckling and un-buckling in a specific order. His story was that people have survived a landing in trees, only to hang themselves when unbuckling the leg straps before the chest strap when trying to extricate themselves from the trees. Whether or not that's an apocryphal story or not, it does make sense to build that muscle memory so the steps are automatic when it counts. On my chute (a National 425), I can see obvious problems if I release the leg straps first. There does appear to be some risk of falling through the chest strap and (at minimum) getting a nasty jerk on the chin.

P3