Standardization in Slack Rope Recovery?

After we've been flying on our own for a
while, slack rope situations become very
rare (except on Condor with which I am
getting through a problematic
introduction).

Instructors of course encounter slack rope
situations more frequently with
magnitudes where many of us would have
yanked long before. Flying a CG hook my
hand is always on the release during tow.

My bigger concern is instructors that want
to see a fully developed spin before
recovery. That builds a muscle memory
that will have you smacking the ground if
you get an incipient in the circuit.

I have a thankfully very short list of
instructors I will not fly with.

The latest addition said some years ago
there was some unidentifiable concern he
"could not put [his] finger on".

there are two kinds of CFIs: one kind evaluates your overall skill and safety, and the other kind thinks they can make you into a new pilot in an hour's flight. the first kind are not a problem. the second kind need to be appeased.


On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:43:07 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

I question your deference to the CFI.

I'd be much more interested in practicing the maneuver the way I always practiced the maneuver (yaw slightly away from the slack). Removing slack is something that I do without thinking about it and if I had the opportunity to practice with 'deliberate slack rope', I'd profit by reinforcing my 'muscle memory'.

Learning the CFI's unfamiliar way of removing slack is counter-productive, especially if it means risking the possibility of a second loop from doing something improperly. What is the point?

So it seems best to resolve on the ground what techniques I'm going to use in the air. If the CFI wants me to do it differently, then he'd have to convince me that the way I was taught to do something was dangerous. If he were inflexible and insisted on doing things his way, I might opt out of getting in the glider with him. If we can't get along on the ground, then I should not fly with him.

I've flown with many CFIs. I'm grateful to all of them. Only one was rigid, inflexible, and unable to carry on a conversation that deviated from his shop worn script. In retrospect, I should have opted out of flying with him.

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

I question your deference to the CFI.

I'd be much more interested in practicing the maneuver the way I always practiced the maneuver (yaw slightly away from the slack). Removing slack is something that I do without thinking about it and if I had the opportunity to practice with 'deliberate slack rope', I'd profit by reinforcing my 'muscle memory'.

Learning the CFI's unfamiliar way of removing slack is counter-productive, especially if it means risking the possibility of a second loop from doing something improperly. What is the point?

So it seems best to resolve on the ground what techniques I'm going to use in the air. If the CFI wants me to do it differently, then he'd have to convince me that the way I was taught to do something was dangerous. If he were inflexible and insisted on doing things his way, I might opt out of getting in the glider with him. If we can't get along on the ground, then I should not fly with him.

I've flown with many CFIs. I'm grateful to all of them. Only one was rigid, inflexible, and unable to carry on a conversation that deviated from his shop worn script. In retrospect, I should have opted out of flying with him.

Great advice!

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-5, LongJourney wrote:
Most of us have had the inevitable frustration of being told to do something one way with one instructor, only to be told to do it differently when flying with another instructor. There are, of course, multiple ways of performing certain maneuvers, and slack rope recovery is one of those. I would like to hear feedback from the instructors here about which method they use, and why?

My personal experience of flying ASK-21s with instructors is that holding yaw until the slack comes out and continuing to hold yaw until the glider is back behind the tow plane works best for me. The air cushions the shock of the rope coming taut as the nose of the glider is pulled sideways through it. Holding yaw prevents a secondary loop of slack occurring. This method also worked well in my Libelle.

The other typical method of slack rope recovery is to yaw away until just before the slack is out and then diving toward the rope in an effort to more closely match the tow plane's speed. In my experience, this method is difficult to do well consistently, and often results in a secondary loop of slack.


Any comments?

Thanks,

Jeff

If the degree of yaw used is proper, no diving or other action is required to avoid a big yank. Smoothness and gentle correction are important elements that need to be taught.
UH

As far as "right" is concerned.. from the Commercial PTS:

D. TASK: AEROTOW - SLACK LINE
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to the causes, hazards, and corrections related to slack line.
2. Recognizes slack line and applies immediate, positive, and smooth corrective action to eliminate slack line in various situations.

A few years back I had this same discussion with a highly respected Master CFI out in colorado, and we came up with at least 7 different methods that people had quotes as the "right" way. IMHO, the answer is that it really does depend on the tow speed, glider (configuration, performance and hook position), and environment. The four methods I have used and teach a

1. USAFA Method - Freeze it, Face it, Fix it. Essentially stop the towplane picture from getting any worse, point your nose directly at the towplane tail hook, and slightly lower the nose to maintain speed while the tow takes up the slack. If performed incorrectly, this can lead to secondary slack lines. Also cannot easily be performed while in a turn.

2. 2-33 or Draggy trainer method - Wait. Just keep flying nice and level behind the tow, and the drag on the ship will naturally catch up. N/A for rotor or moderate to severe turbulence or if unable to follow the tow.

3. Yaw away method - Maintain the same altitude as the tow, and sustain an off-center yaw angle until the slackline starts to come out. As the line becomes taught, reduce the rudder input to allow the nose to be corrected by the towplane. It is certainly the sloppiest way to get the job done, but is effective in cushioning the slackline out.

4. Drag Devices - Tactical use of spoilers in egregious slacklines can be very effective in turning a glass ship into the situation of #2. Again, however, over-use of the spoilers can cause too high of a speed differential and cause secondary slack lines or break the rope. If i use this method, it is generally in order to more effectively set up one of the other methods. With flapped ships, adding positive flap can help increase drag to serve this purpose, but can complicate your altitude alignment due to the additional lift.

For what it's worth.
Chris

Bill T " Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope. "

While True, moving off too the side (top left or right of boxing the wake) it will yaw the tow plane to help buffer the tension.

Brian

As announced in SOARING magazine . . .
The Soaring Safety Foundation (SSF), the training and safety arm of the SSA, is producing short training videos based on the required tasks in the FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) at the Commercial level, available by links at www.soaringsafety.org

The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for Private, Commercial and CFI glider pilots require that "slack line" recoveries be performed on the FAA Practical Test ("checkride.") Other videos in SSF series include boxing the wake and slips to landing without the use of air brakes or spoilers, as required in the FAA PTS.

Additional videos to be released soon include accuracy landings, downwind and crosswind landings. Student pilots and Flight Instructors should consider that the SSF is not suggesting these videos are the ONLY way to accomplish the maneuvers in the PTS.

The videos include the FAA criteria for the task in the PTS then demonstrations of some suggested methods that may help you pass the checkride. Common errors are discussed in these short videos filmed at Marfa Gliders in southwest Texas (in January), home of my "Free Checkrides" offer as posted on this newsgroup.

Burt Compton, FAA Designated Pilot Examiner, Trustee of the Soaring Safety Foundation.

P.S. Come to the SSA Convention in Greenville, SC, FEB 17-20.
Attend the SSF Seminar on Wednesday FEB 17 at 6 PM in the Hilton-Greenville, Anderson ballroom. Free and qualifies for FAA "Wings" credit.
Then visit us in the SSF booth FEB 18-20 in the nearby TD Convention Hall, Greenville, SC.
I'll see you there!

maybe the question is not why there are different techniques for required tasks.

rather, why do CFIs, who are giving checkouts and BFRs to experienced pilots (as opposed to primary instruction), demand one specific method?

Shouldn't they use the "Satisfactory Performance" criteria as outlined in the PTS, which says:

Satisfactory performance to meet the requirements for certification is
based on the applicant's ability to safely:

1. perform the TASKs specified in the AREAS OF OPERATION for
the certificate or rating sought within the approved standards;

2. demonstrate mastery of the aircraft with the successful outcome of
each TASK performed never seriously in doubt;

3. demonstrate satisfactory proficiency and competency within the
approved standards; and

4. demonstrate sound judgment and ADM.

--bob

Where I fly only low position aerotows are performed and even in turbulent conditions with glass gliders, rope slack doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Are high position aerotows more prone to developing rope slack?

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 9:31:22 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
Where I fly only low position aerotows are performed and even in turbulent conditions with glass gliders, rope slack doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Are high position aerotows more prone to developing rope slack?

I flew in low tow in South Africa for many years and clearly remember a few instances of very slack rope. One time the tow plane flew into a strong thermal and slowed so fast that the tow rope snaked back over my canopy and far down the fuselage. This was in a Jantar-1 that had the hook under the front belly.

I was taught the offset and yaw recovery method rather than the dive and hope-for-the-best method and I use it fairly often in our strong summer conditions. I am much more scared of simulated rope breaks below 200-feet!

Mike